--- Deborah Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All of the folks I know who want 'more proof' or a
> 'UN-sanctioned international coalition' before war
> is
> declared think Saddam is a monster who ought to have
> a
> bullet through his head - so they are not giving him
> any 'benefit' WRT his heinous crimes and his basic
> unfitness to be a nation's leader.  

But it's interesting, isn't it, that this doesn't seem
to excite them at all.  I live in New York, I saw the
protests, and I read plenty of stuff the anti-war
people put out.  They don't put any effort into
condemning Saddam, and it clearly doesn't excite them
at all.  The perceived sins of the US - that excites
them, that they'll get energized about.  But genocide,
torture, mass murder - condemning that (if they do it
at all, and quite often they don't) that's nothing
more than an empty ritual.
> Why equate "war protester" with "pro-Saddam?!" -
> again, the vast majority of those I know who
> "protest
> the war" do so _because they think an international
> coalition ought to be made_ to prosecute it (OK, one
> that involves the UN), not b/c they think SH is
> anything other than a slime-ball.

But that's a fantasy, and we know it's a fantasy, so
it's equivalent to saying they want Mahatma Gandhi to
get up out of his grave and give the war its blessing.
 First, the argument that the agreement of dictatorial
China, amoral France, and well, whatever the hell
Russia is right now, gives some sort of moral stamp to
overthrowing someone like Hussein is absurd.  Second,
the national interests of France (as the French
government currently interprets them) mean that we
aren't going to get that - so why, instead of
protesting the US, aren't there hundreds of thousands
of people burning French flags for supporting someone
like Hussein?  It's not like this is an aberration -
they've been doing it for decades.  So why isn't that
getting people excited?  Again, it's suggestive.

You can say "this ought to happen" or "that ought to
happen" as much as you want.  They are not, in fact,
going to happen.  One of the markers of sanity is
seeing the world as it actually is, not as you wish it
were.  So this is the world as it is.  Countries are
self-interested.  Some of them perceive their
self-interest as protecting Saddam.  The US thinks its
self-interest is in overthrowing Saddam.  Overthrowing
Saddam would be A Good Thing.  The moral thing.  So
American interests (as they often are) are in
consonance with the demands of abstract morality, and
French interests (among others) are opposed to that
morality.  But it's the _US_ people are protesting? 
What does that tell you?

> I am genuinely puzzled by the "but turn a blind eye
> > to the vastly larger faults of those who oppose
> her,"
> Gautam, because I really don't know *anyone* who
> thinks that way.  I am certainly among those _who
> expect America to hold to a higher moral standard_
> because - well, because we're *supposed* to be
> morally
> superior to the nasty dictators of the world!  Part
> of
> my dismay at the way this Administration has handled
> policy is that it *is not* behaving in what I
> consider
> a "grown-up" way, a sensible way, a way which
> considers the importance of America's world image, a
> way which acknowledges that 'reforming Iraq' will be
> a
> difficult task with uncertain choices.  Instead they
> *treat American citizens as too stupid to
> understand*
> what's going on (or else undeserving of knowledge of
> the uncertainties ahead).  To borrow a hip-hop term
> (I
> think :}), they are dissing not only allies and
> friends, but the American public.
> 
> Why is this important?  Because a sheriff, in the
> idealized Old West, is not only supposed to pack a
> gun
> and shoot well, but be honest and open: "It's gonna
> be
> a heck of a fight, and it'll mean each an' ev'ry one
> of you has to help; some of you will die.  I said I
> was gonna help fix the livery stable an' improve the
> school an' get a clinic goin', but those things are
> gonna have to wait until this pack of bandits is
> dead
> or jailed..."  [IOW, promising to cut taxes _and_
> spend more on prescription drugs _and_ prosecute a
> war
> etc. is either hopelessly naive, or a pack of lies.]
> 
> Debbi

But, well, Debbi, I do know lots of people who are
that way.  Most of them seem to oppose the war.  And
the behavior crops up a lot.  For example, I think you
made a rather snarky comment about how "our hands
aren't clean" with regards to supporting Saddam.  Now,
that's true.  But there's a huge difference between
the fairly minor aid that we gave him, and the
enormous support that he got from, say, France and
Germany.  So why the comment?  If aide to Saddam
disqualifies you from acting here, then it's not _us_
who bear the vast majority of the moral taint, is it? 
So that should sort of discredit the anti-war
argument, doesn't it?  But I don't see people making
that argument much, and I don't see the anti-war folks
troubled much by who they've lined themselves up with.
 The only consistency in their position is, in fact,
who they're lined up _against_.  That tells me
something too.

Gautam

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