----- Original Message ----- From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Question for everyone
> At 12:31 26-10-2002 -0500, Robert Seeberger wrote: > > > > That would mean that I am one of very few people on this list who have > > > a *functioning* short-term memory... > > > >No...........It means that most people on this list forgive small human > >errors, errors of judgement, and general silliness, while they take > >notice of intentional attempts to disrupt the list and/or force people to > >have a particular opinion. > > Excuse me? Giorgis has, among other things, repeatedly refused to answer > questions, has repeatedly refused to back his claims, and has repeatedly > turned to personal attacks to try and silence people who disagree with him. > In my book, such behaviour does not qualify as merely "small human errors, > errors in judgement, and general silliness". To me, it definitely qualifies > as disruptive behaviour. > No one seems to care but you. You should give it up. > > >Maybe you havent noticed but you are talking about John and everyone else is > >talking about you. > > Actually, I have noticed, and I must say I find it quite disturbing that > people are a lot more eager to criticise the person who points out > misbehaviour, than criticising the person who is displaying that misbehaviour. > No, they are criticising someone who is disrupting the list over a personal vendetta. Give it up. > > >Conversations like this do not work well. > > Guess I will just have to shut up then, and accept that I was, am, and > probably always will be, the only person on this list who realises that > Giorgis' gross misbehaviour is undesirable behaviour and disruptive to this > list. Thats what you are being asked to do. Go for it dude! > > > > > >Your childish and churlish behavior is far worse than anything you > > > >have accused John of. > > > > > > So, criticising someone for is misbehaviour is worse than the > > > misbehaviour itself? > > > >Not at all. But the incessant ranting about it is worse. > >Early on you might have had some justification, but now it looks like a > >bad habit or an addiction. > > > >It appears you want to modify his behavior into leaving the list. > > I do not want him to leave the list, I want him to get off his high horse > and become a civilised, mature person with whom one can have a discussion > *without* seeing questions deliberately remaining unanswered, *without* > claims deliberately remaining unproven, and *without* running the risk of > becoming yet another target for his personal attacks. > If you realise it is not likely to happen: Give it up. > > >Let me repeat this: You can only control your own behavior, and it is the > >only behavior you are responsible for. > > True, but that does not mean I cannot point it out when others misbehave, > and that I cannot try to get those others to improve their behaviour. > Absolutely true. But there is a point beyond which such attempts are no longer seen as being moral and helpfull, but instead become irritating and unwanted. You passed that signpost long ago unfortunately and have long since begun to look like a nuisance. I honestly believe you have more self respect than to let yourself be viewed as a nuisance to the list when you have worked so hard on Brin-L.com. On one hand you are a great credit to the list, on the other you have been a pain for most of us. I for one, would much prefer knowing you as a credit to our group and paying you the respect you deserve for being one. This unending quarrel with John really gets in the way of that and makes you look bad. You are a much better person than that and should not lower yourself to the level of petty bickering. > > >Let the listowners handle misbehaviors. > > I would love to, but unfortunately the various listowners this list has had > (except me) do not seem to recognise Giorgis's behaviour as being > disruptive misbehaviour. > And that should tell you something. That Johns behavior is not as bad as you seem to think. > > > > The frequence of my criticism happens to equal the frequency with which > > > Giorgis shows his usual questionable behaviour. So, essentially, if you > > > want things to improve you will have to get him to shape up. > > > >That sounds distinctly like a threat! > > What is threatening about that? I do not see anything in my statement that > could be considered a threat. Really, all I am saying is that Giorgis is > the cause of all this list disruption, and therefore you will have to > convince him to improve his behaviour in such a way that such disruption > will not reoccur. John is in no way responsible for your actions. If you claim that you will continue your tirade until John does what you want, you are holding the list hostage. And for that I would ask for your expulsion from the list. Not the outcome I would prefer. > > > >I like you Jeroen, but there is a limit to tolerance. > > There is also a limit to my tolerance, but apparently I am not supposed to > speak up when someone crosses that line. :-( > Your tolerance is not the factor that decides on this list. > > >You bring shame upon this list. > > You know, I have been thinking the exact same thing about a certain other > member of this list -- his initials are JDG. > That you consistantly blame someone else for your behavior is a sign of irresponsibility. > > > > What poor judgement? Have I been having the wrong impressions about > > > Giorgis? > > > >I think so. > > Then what impression *should* I have gotten from his repeated refusals to > answer questions and back his claims? What impression *should* I have > gotten from his personal attacks against various listmembers over the > years? Can you answer those questions for me? > Sure. You should have seen him as being wrong or full of it, filed that in your memory bank, and went on your way with more important things. You can (in your own mind) discount the opinions of others, and everything is quite alright as long as you treat those same people with respect. You are not required to like anyone, just treat them decently. > > >It seems to me that you take these things far too personally. > >I think that both you and John have good intentions, > > Then what are the "good intentions" behind refusing to answer questions and > refusing to back claims? What are the "good intentions" behind launching > personal attacks against other listmembers? Can you answer those questions > for me? > Saying a person is well intentioned and saying everything they do is A-OK are exclusive statements. You or John can be wrong, yall can make a mistake, yall can lose your temper and act awfully, but none of those things by themselves make you or him a bad person. And sometimes you take the good with the bad because you just dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. > > Jeroen "How long till Hell freezes over?" van Baardwijk > xponent Ice Cream For Sale In Hades Maru rob _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
