Thanks for clarifying the Wasm process. It sounds like there's some mismatch between its more lax requirements, and the requirements of the Blink process for shipping things in Chromium, and in particular the requirements for extending an experiment.
It sounds like it would be easy to make progress on the WPTs requirement, but potentially not very useful for the community, if all the Wasm engines are using the existing JS API tests and not paying attention to WPTs until a later stage. And, it would be hard to make progress on the spec requirement. I'm inclined to approve the extension, as it's clear you all are making a good-faith effort to shape this feature in response to developer and implementer feedback and using the experiment framework as intended. However, since it contradicts the letter of the process, please give us a day or so to discuss amongst API owners and make sure others are OK with this kind of exception. And maybe, as Mike mentioned during the last extension <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/k7DQ3qYbn90/m/zVjoH0ixAQAJ>, we should codify some of these exceptions into the Blink process to avoid the clash in the future. On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 12:09 AM Emanuel Ziegler <ecmzieg...@chromium.org> wrote: > Thanks for taking a look! The progress is in alignment with the Wasm spec > process requirements. Please see my answers below where I provide more > background. > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 6:04 AM Domenic Denicola <dome...@chromium.org> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 2:50 AM Emanuel Ziegler <ecmzieg...@chromium.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear API owners, >>> >>> We would like to request an extension of the origin trial for Wasm JS >>> String Builtins >>> <https://developer.chrome.com/origintrials/#/view_trial/2142587522721513473>. >>> There were recent changes to the initialization of string constants >>> (implicit imports) which improved startup time and binary size on local >>> measurements. >>> >>> We would like to use the experiment to verify the viability of this >>> change in the wild (effect on load and startup times) and upcoming changes >>> to it (variable import namespace for greater flexibility). Sheets/J2Wasm >>> already implemented the first part and wants to roll it out to users in the >>> next weeks as part of the origin trial. >>> >>> The proposal is progressing well along the requested dimensions >>> >>> - Draft spec (early draft is ok, but must be spec-like and >>> associated with the appropriate standardization venue, or WICG) >>> - The proposal continues to be actively maintained and changed >>> with plenty of community engagement. >>> - Recent changes mostly affected string constants and their >>> initialization. >>> >>> To me, the proposal document does not seem very "spec-like", but instead >> like an explainer. Is there a formal specification available? >> > > This is in accordance with common practice and in line with the Wasm > proposal workflow. To quote from the official documentation > <https://github.com/WebAssembly/meetings/blob/main/process/phases.md#3-implementation-phase-community--working-group> > for > phase 3: > > *"Updates on the actual spec document and reference interpreter are NOT > yet required"* > > > Instead they only happen during phase 3 in preparation for phase 4 (final > stage). Until then, the overview/explainer document is the main source of > truth to avoid double maintenance. Spec changes also often require the > assistance of a Wasm spec expert and we want to keep the overhead for those > low. The overhead of maintaining spec updates will hopefully improve in a > year or two with the planned switch to SpecTec > <https://github.com/Wasm-DSL/spectec/blob/main/spectec/README.md> which > will make the spec more accessible to proposal champions and implementers. > > >>> - TAG review (see exceptions >>> >>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/guidelines/api-owners/process-exceptions/> >>> ) >>> - A TAG review has been requested >>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/940> and is >>> scheduled for discussion. >>> - bit.ly/blink-signals requests >>> - Firefox/SpiderMonkey is actively working on their prototype and >>> the champion behind this proposal. >>> - Safari/JSC expressed openness to the proposal but no official >>> confirmation yet. >>> - Outreach for feedback from the spec community >>> - The proposal (including string constant changes) was voted to >>> phase 3 at the on-site Wasm CG meeting on June 5 with unanimous >>> consent. >>> - WPT tests >>> - WPTs will likely be added based on the already existing JS API >>> tests in the proposal repository >>> >>> <https://github.com/WebAssembly/js-string-builtins/tree/main/test/js-api/js-string> >>> (see GitHub issue 33 on the proposal repository >>> <https://github.com/WebAssembly/js-string-builtins/issues/33> on >>> this question). >>> >>> Is there anything preventing you from upstreaming those tests to the web >> platform tests repository now? >> > > No, it wasn't a priority so far and is not required at all by the Wasm > proposal process. Wasm engines don't use them as their primary correctness > verification method. That's what Wasm spec tests are used for which have > been added during phase 2 in alignment with the requirements. The use of > WPTs for the browser community lies mostly in making support (or lack of > it) transparent to web developers. As such, they are usually created once > the feature is sufficiently stable to avoid extra maintenance and noise > generated from updates and inconsistencies in between WPTs and Wasm spec > tests. If you think there would be a benefit in merging them now, we can > raise that with the proposal champion. > > >> More details on some of these items can be found in the updated >>> experiment summary >>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zL9goDsawTQUFuuQ8ddI_pUcLY1_iFOsHaDZ374dnGw/edit> >>> . >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Emanuel >>> >>> >>> Contact emailsecmzieg...@chromium.org, jkumme...@chromium.org, >>> ad...@chromium.org >>> >>> ExplainerNone >>> >>> Specification >>> https://github.com/WebAssembly/js-string-builtins/blob/main/proposals/js-string-builtins/Overview.md >>> >>> Summary >>> >>> This feature exposes common JS string operations for easy import into >>> WebAssembly and optimizations thereof. This allows creating and >>> manipulating JS strings from WebAssembly without native support within >>> WebAssembly while still allowing for a similar performance as native string >>> references. The mechanism works by exposing suitably strict versions of JS >>> string operations in the WebAssembly JS API. These can be imported by >>> modules using externref as a generic data type for storing the strings. The >>> engine can identify that these imports can be represented by native graph >>> operators without the need for calling into JS. This leads to a comparable >>> peak performance as native string operations while allowing quick >>> interoperability with JS since no copying at the boundary is required when >>> calling into arbitrary JS functions that consume strings. >>> >>> >>> Blink componentBlink>JavaScript>WebAssembly >>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EJavaScript%3EWebAssembly> >>> >>> TAG reviewNone >>> >>> TAG review statusPending >>> >>> Chromium Trial NameWebAssemblyJSStringBuiltins >>> >>> Link to origin trial feedback summary >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zL9goDsawTQUFuuQ8ddI_pUcLY1_iFOsHaDZ374dnGw/edit?usp=sharing >>> >>> Origin Trial documentation link >>> https://github.com/WebAssembly/js-string-builtins/blob/main/proposals/js-string-builtins/Overview.md >>> >>> Risks >>> >>> >>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>> >>> None >>> >>> >>> *Gecko*: Positive >>> >>> *WebKit*: No signal ( >>> https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/343) >>> >>> *Web developers*: No signals >>> >>> *Other signals*: >>> >>> WebView application risks >>> >>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such >>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications? >>> >>> None >>> >>> >>> Goals for experimentation >>> >>> >>> >>> Ongoing technical constraints >>> >>> None >>> >>> >>> Debuggability >>> >>> None >>> >>> >>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac, >>> Linux, ChromeOS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes >>> >>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>> ?No >>> >>> Flag name on chrome://flagsNone >>> >>> Finch feature nameNone >>> >>> Non-finch justificationNone >>> >>> Requires code in //chrome?False >>> >>> Estimated milestones >>> Origin trial desktop first 119 >>> Origin trial desktop last 127 >>> Origin trial extension 1 end milestone 127 >>> >>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/6695587390423040?gate=5106659883220992 >>> >>> Links to previous Intent discussionsIntent to Experiment: >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RyzxKa0Pj6q7B_jyfT%3DH%2BSK264%3Dx8wn1ans%3D8UjHRhctQ%40mail.gmail.com >>> Intent to Extend Experiment 1: >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RyYPNTcmt1uHe279qW46ff3S%3DZ-M%3DHZjKn%3DK%2Bgp_0DyZw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>> Intent to Ship: >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RyYPNTcmt1uHe279qW46ff3S%3DZ-M%3DHZjKn%3DK%2Bgp_0DyZw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>> >>> >>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>> <https://chromestatus.com/>. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RzGQhi3m4g_rTQt79LFFz6mdmT%3D8YRVomA4UwAVcZQtrA%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RzGQhi3m4g_rTQt79LFFz6mdmT%3D8YRVomA4UwAVcZQtrA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra_16woqtqCWOW7Gr4uy2iX3hvj3iSYXQWZaVOc9q9e1Nw%40mail.gmail.com.
