LGTM3

The risk/benefit tradeoff here seems reasonable. Thanks for continuing to
work with the community on finding the ideal shape of the solution here.
Please recommend IDPs to take anti-self-hosting means to prevent making
future changes to this harder than they should be.


On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 6:16 PM Chris Harrelson <[email protected]>
wrote:

> LGTM2
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 9:02 AM Daniel Bratell <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> LGTM1
>>
>> (I appreciate that there are some unique risks here, but I'm confident
>> the team will be able to navigate those)
>>
>> /Daniel
>> On 2022-10-11 23:13, 'Ilya Grigorik' via blink-dev wrote:
>>
>> At Shopify, we've followed progress closely, and I'm really excited to
>> see the i2s!
>>
>> Agree with the analysis tradeoffs and proposed rollout. This is a
>> capability we're keenly interested in and would be willing to stay hands-on
>> with as it evolves.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 1:54 PM Sam Goto <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 1:25 AM Yoav Weiss <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 4:13 AM Rick Byers <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've been involved somewhat with this work and so I'm recusing myself
>>>>> from my API owner role for this intent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nevertheless I wanted to chime in and say that I agree with the risk
>>>>> tradeoff the team is proposing we make here. Yes there's still a lot to
>>>>> figure out in the federated identity space, and it's likely that we'll 
>>>>> find
>>>>> places where we need to make some breaking changes to better meet customer
>>>>> needs and get to interoperability. But I believe shipping what we have now
>>>>> as a V0 is the most effective way to figure out the path forward in a
>>>>> timeframe that's compatible with Chrome's plans for 3P cookie deprecation.
>>>>> We've been evolving designs in public for >2 years and now we have at 
>>>>> least
>>>>> one partner who is ready to scale up beyond OT limits, and we'd both learn
>>>>> a lot from doing so. It would be a mistake to think that we just have a 
>>>>> few
>>>>> open issues to resolve before we could call the design "mature", and I
>>>>> don't want to risk losing momentum with customers by suggesting we should
>>>>> just stick to "experiments" for another 6-12 months. Instead the process 
>>>>> of
>>>>> becoming mature in the context of a dynamic identity provider ecosystem 
>>>>> and
>>>>> evolving privacy landscape will be best served by a "launch and iterate"
>>>>> approach. Doing this responsibly requires a commitment on our part to
>>>>> engage with the standards community in good faith to avoid past failure
>>>>> modes where V0 (chromium-only) and V1 (standard) APIs have co-existed in
>>>>> chromium for an extended period of time while Google services in 
>>>>> particular
>>>>> have retained a dependency on the V0 behavior.
>>>>>
>>>>> The partnership and ecosystem dynamics here remind me a lot of what we
>>>>> encountered with PaymentRequest. We still don't have payment APIs "figured
>>>>> out", but we've been able to learn and iterate
>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpSpNJ96U8trhNkfV0v9fk/edit#>
>>>>> by working with a handful of partners through the web payments working
>>>>> group to evolve fully launched APIs, including making significant breaking
>>>>> changes along the way (despite my own initial skepticism of the
>>>>> practicality of that).
>>>>>
>>>>> Rick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 6:31 PM Sam Goto <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Contact emails
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explainer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/explainer.md
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specification
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://fedidcg.github.io/FedCM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Federated Credential Management API (originally WebID
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/41#issuecomment-712304910>)
>>>>>> allows users to use their federated identity to login to websites in a
>>>>>> manner compatible with improvements to browser privacy. This intent 
>>>>>> covers
>>>>>> a Web Platform API to prompt the user to choose accounts from one 
>>>>>> Identity
>>>>>> Provider to sign-up or sign-in to a website. We expect to send future
>>>>>> intents to make enhancements over these capabilities (e.g. multiple
>>>>>> IdPs <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/319>) and keep raising
>>>>>> the privacy properties of the API (e.g. the timing attack
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/230#issuecomment-1089040953>
>>>>>> problem).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blink component
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blink>Identity>FedCM
>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EIdentity%3EFedCM>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TAG review
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Early Tag Review https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/622
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Spec Tag Review https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/718
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TAG review status
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Positive
>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/718#issuecomment-1187725216>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Risks
>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Zero compatibility risk (new API)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gecko: Positive
>>>>>> <https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/618#issuecomment-1221964677>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WebKit: Positive
>>>>>> <https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2022-March/032162.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On interoperability and forward compatibility: FedCM is large and
>>>>>> complex and, as browser vendors start to implement it (example
>>>>>> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1782066>), we are
>>>>>> seeing positive and constructive engagement. For example, we are actively
>>>>>> working with Mozilla to find an interoperable way to address the
>>>>>> timing attack problem
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/230#issuecomment-1089040953>,
>>>>>> support multiple IdPs <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/319>
>>>>>> and protect endpoints <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/320>.
>>>>>> Because of that, there is a risk of incompatible changes going forward
>>>>>> (list of currently known potential risks here
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/labels/compatibility%20risk>),
>>>>>> mostly affecting IdPs (see section below on activation). We think it is
>>>>>> unavoidable that parts of our current design are suboptimal and are going
>>>>>> to need to be revisited, but the biggest risk we are trying to avoid is 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> fail to bring IdPs along with us, increase their production footprint 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> we can learn from, and increase our confidence on technical feasibility 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> product-market fit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on our origin trials, we expect a small number of IdPs (say,
>>>>>> less than ~30) to be incentivized  to use the API in production until
>>>>>> chrome phases-out third party cookies in 2024
>>>>>> <https://privacysandbox.com/intl/en_us/open-web/#the-privacy-sandbox-timeline>.
>>>>>> These IdPs that we are partnering with need time, confidence, and 
>>>>>> stability
>>>>>> to increase their deployment. For example, in origin trials, we ran into 
>>>>>> CSP
>>>>>> issues
>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1320724> and 
>>>>>> cross-origin
>>>>>> iframe issues
>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1322320> that
>>>>>> we could have never anticipated without IdPs experimentation, even if we
>>>>>> had interoperable implementations in all major browsers. We think that 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> risk we take by not having a baseline that IdPs can work from if the API
>>>>>> isn’t shipped outweighs the forward compatibility risks: not shipping 
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> mean that we won’t learn about these bugs until it is too close to the
>>>>>> deprecation of third party cookie (e.g. IdPs will continue to evolve 
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> products using iframes and third party cookies without an alternative to
>>>>>> build on). We also think that we can address some concerns on forward
>>>>>> compatibility by setting the right expectations during developer
>>>>>> documentation / outreach to IdPs as we make it battle-tested before we
>>>>>> deprecate third party cookies in 2024
>>>>>> <https://privacysandbox.com/intl/en_us/open-web/#the-privacy-sandbox-timeline>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Web developers: We’ve been working with Identity Providers and
>>>>>> Relying Parties over the last ~3 years, going over a good amount of 
>>>>>> design
>>>>>> alternatives and prototypes (TPAC 2020
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2020/The%20Web%20Platform%2C%20Privacy%20and%20Federation%20-%20TPAC.pdf>,
>>>>>> 2021
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2021/FedCM%20%40%20TPAC%202021%20(1).pdf>
>>>>>> and 2022
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2022/FedCM%20%40%20TPAC.pdf>,
>>>>>> BlinkOn 14
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2021/WebID%20-%20BlinkOn%2014.pdf>,
>>>>>> 15
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2021/BlinkOn%2015%20--%20FedCM.pdf>,
>>>>>> 16
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2022/FedCM%20BlinkOn%2016.pdf>,
>>>>>> OIDF 2020
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2020/Browsers%20and%20Federation%20-%20OpenID.pdf>,
>>>>>> IIW 2020
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/blob/main/meetings/2020/The%20Web%20Platform%2C%20Privacy%20and%20Federation%20-%20IIW.pdf>),
>>>>>> trying to strike the right balance between privacy/security properties 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> deployment structures (e.g. backwards compatibility). The current
>>>>>> formulation is the result of identity providers, relying parties, browser
>>>>>> vendors and industry experts that have co-designed with us through our
>>>>>> devtrials and gathered production experience with their users through our
>>>>>> origin trials (around ~33 small and big registered IdPs). For example, in
>>>>>> the last two quarters, the Google Sign-in team has run experiments with 
>>>>>> ~20
>>>>>> Relying Parties leading to more than ~300K real users logging-in in
>>>>>> production, achieving comparable sign-in/up conversion rates without
>>>>>> depending on third party cookies. While this is a small sample size of 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ecosystem and the deployment (notably missing representation of 
>>>>>> enterprises
>>>>>> and EDU), we are encouraged by the approach and confident this is a solid
>>>>>> and necessary first step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other signals: This API is being developed within the FedID CG
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg> composed of identity providers, relying
>>>>>> parties, browser vendors and industry experts. The CG has produced an
>>>>>> enumeration of known issues
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/use-case-library/wiki/Primitives-by-Use-Case>
>>>>>> in the absence of third party cookies, a list of mitigation
>>>>>> alternatives
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/use-case-library/wiki/Third-party-cookie-mitigations>
>>>>>> and is actively working on how to decide
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/use-case-library/wiki/User-Flow-Decision-Trees>
>>>>>> which Web Platform API to use for each circumstance. We don’t expect (or
>>>>>> are designing for) FedCM to be used exclusively to solve all of the known
>>>>>> issues, but rather in coordination with other browser proposals (e.g.
>>>>>> CHIPS). We acknowledge that there is a series of anticipated breakages 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> are not handled (effectively) by any proposal (FedCM included) at the
>>>>>> moment, and we are excited to continue working with the FedID CG, the
>>>>>> Privacy CG <https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/privacycg> and the Privacy
>>>>>> Sandbox <https://privacysandbox.com/> to extend FedCM in whichever
>>>>>> way is constructive and/or work on new proposals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Activation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our design assumes that it is exponentially harder, in this order, to
>>>>>> make changes to (a) user behavior than, (b) websites, (c) identity
>>>>>> providers and then, lastly, (d) browsers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I agree with this ordering.
>>>> It'd be good to be transparent with adopting identity providers about
>>>> the potential compat risk, so that they'd know what they are signing up 
>>>> for.
>>>>
>>>> On top of that, there's some risk of the *compat issues leaking* from
>>>> identity providers to websites, if those websites self-host the IDP SDKs
>>>> (for performance or other reasons).
>>>> Would it be possible to ask identity providers to take measures against
>>>> self-hosting? e.g. I think `document.currentScript.src` can help them
>>>> enforce the script coming from an updatable source.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I really like the `document.currentScript.src` suggestion, and I think
>>> that’s a great way to help us control future breakages!
>>>
>>> As you suggested, there is a lot that we can do by working with the
>>> Developer Relations (devrel) and Business Development (BD) teams to set up
>>> the right expectations as this goes out. Here are a few examples that we
>>> think could work:
>>>
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    Set up a communication channel (e.g. a mailing list similar to the
>>>    one we have for Core Web Vitals here
>>>    <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/speed-metrics-announce>
>>>    and here
>>>    <https://mobile.twitter.com/NicPenaM/status/1427712030455259142>)
>>>    that IdPs can subscribe to coordinate with us (in addition to direct 1:1
>>>    partnerships)
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    Be transparent about the moving parts (e.g. the timing attack problem
>>>    <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/230#issuecomment-1089040953>,
>>>    the multi-IdPs <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/319> API,
>>>    etc), and a rough timeline to resolve them (e.g. we could use the Privacy
>>>    Sandbox Timeline
>>>    
>>> <https://privacysandbox.com/intl/en_us/open-web/#the-privacy-sandbox-timeline>
>>>    and have meaningful stability checkpoints at General Availability in
>>>    2023
>>>    
>>> <https://privacysandbox.com/intl/en_us/open-web/#the-privacy-sandbox-timeline>
>>>    and Phase-out in 2024
>>>    
>>> <https://privacysandbox.com/intl/en_us/open-web/#the-privacy-sandbox-timeline>
>>>    ).
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    Make a recommendation to IdPs to control their SDKs (e.g. either
>>>    through document.currentScript.src or SLAs), at least until some moving
>>>    parts settle, so that we can iterate quickly as an industry. It is
>>>    ultimately a business decision that IdPs make, so we can only go as far 
>>> as
>>>    making a recommendation.
>>>
>>>
>>> Just a few more data points:
>>>
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    We expect it is going to take us more than a quarter but less than a
>>>    year to resolve the known moving parts with confidence. Also, 
>>> importantly,
>>>    they may or may not require backwards incompatible API changes.
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    To give you a sense of numbers, in origin trials, ~33 IdPs
>>>    registered over the last ~7 months. There are few IdPs (that have the
>>>    incentives to use the API at the moment, while 3P cookies are still 
>>> around)
>>>    and they are large and sophisticated developers
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    In our experience so far, very few websites choose to self-host (in
>>>    origin trials, we found only 1), and the ones that do, are extremely 
>>> large
>>>    and sophisticated developers that can afford to self-host (i.e. we would
>>>    know how to reach out to them individually)
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    Outside of real-world production IdP deployment, it is possible,
>>>    though, that we are going to find developers playing with the API, 
>>> writing
>>>    blogs or demos, and that’s more likely to break (because we wouldn’t be
>>>    able to reach out to them individually), but that’s a more acceptable
>>>    breakage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> So, the design pulls as much as possible the burden of change to
>>>>>> browsers vendors and identity providers, and goes to a great extent to
>>>>>> require little to no changes to websites and user's norms, while at the
>>>>>> same time, raising the privacy properties of the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While that’s not always possible, we believe we found an activation
>>>>>> structure that could work at scale for a substantial part of the 
>>>>>> deployment
>>>>>> (especially for consumers) through JS SDKs that are provided by Identity
>>>>>> Providers and get dynamically embedded into relying parties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, through their JS SDKs, the Google Sign-in team was able
>>>>>> to replace their dependence on third party cookies with FedCM without
>>>>>> requiring changes to relying parties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We acknowledge that this activation model is insufficient for a lot
>>>>>> of the deployment (especially for enterprises), so finding alternative
>>>>>> activation structures is an active area of investigation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WebView application risks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
>>>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This API does not deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Debuggability
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Basic devtools integration supported. We plan to extend this support
>>>>>> as the product matures and we learn from developers what challenges they
>>>>>> run into.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows,
>>>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The current implementation is available on all platforms (Windows,
>>>>>> Mac, Linux, ChromeOS and Android) except WebView.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md>
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, fedcm-* tests in this directory
>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/external/wpt/credential-management/>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Known issue: some of our WPT tests are failing
>>>>>> <https://wpt.fyi/results/credential-management?label=experimental&label=master&aligned&view=subtest>
>>>>>> on wpt.fyi. While the tests exist and pass in Chromium’s infrastructure,
>>>>>> they rely on a Chrome-specific flag that would not work in other 
>>>>>> browsers.
>>>>>> Making them work on upstream WPT requires PAC support; however, WPT’s PAC
>>>>>> support does not currently support HTTPS tests, which FedCM requires
>>>>>> because it is only exposed to secure contexts. We are working on adding
>>>>>> that support, which is in progress here
>>>>>> <https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/35276>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Origin Trial Instructions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://developer.chrome.com/blog/fedcm-origin-trial/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Flag name
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fedcm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tracking bug
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1353814
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Launch bug
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1321238
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Measurement
>>>>>>
>>>>>> kFederatedCredentialManagement
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Estimated milestones
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OriginTrial desktop last
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 107
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OriginTrial desktop first
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 103
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OriginTrial Android last
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 107
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OriginTrial Android first
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 101
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DevTrial on Android
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 98
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anticipated spec changes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’re also currently resolving some questions
>>>>>> <https://github.com/fedidcg/FedCM/issues/320> related to Fetch
>>>>>> integration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/6438627087220736
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Intent to Prototype
>>>>>>    
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/2B4TJ7j2U4M/m/1X5T3OszCAAJ>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Ready for Trial
>>>>>>    <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/jlV_1m7uUAg>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Intent to Experiment
>>>>>>    <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/kws-gltC5us>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Intent to Extend Experiment
>>>>>>    <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Juc7ix6UI24>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>.
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>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>> send an email to [email protected].
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CALdEk-yf1BMQ4ZtMYH9cCQsecroEE3ZPOKgY8LU%3DNX3zAfbwYA%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CALdEk-yf1BMQ4ZtMYH9cCQsecroEE3ZPOKgY8LU%3DNX3zAfbwYA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
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>>>>> .
>>>>>
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