Hmm, perhaps the experience is a bit unique then for us on ChromeOS - we often are asked to solve a problem for first-party or partner developers, which doesn't generate any public evidence of support/interest/feedback, so we need to find interested 3rd party developers as well. Perhaps the best approach would be to convince those first-party or partner developers to express more public support or feedback?
On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 23:51, Domenic Denicola <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:53 AM Glen Robertson <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hmm, in my (admittedly very limited so far!) experience, it is rare to >> get much feedback from developers on APIs before the OT stage. Maybe I need >> to get better at publicity! >> If we need feedback (I agree we do) and OT is the best way to get >> feedback, it sounds *almost* like a recommendation to default to running >> an OT. >> > > In my experience this kind of flow ends up being a bit backward. Ideally > you have feedback from developers asking you to solve a problem; you > propose and implement an API to do so; and then those same developers tell > you "yes, this is a good solution". Violà, developer feedback! > > This only requires an OT if the API is sufficiently tricky that the > developers in question cannot evaluate it without deploying to production. > But in most cases, such developers can give this feedback based on > prototyping with the feature behind a flag. Or in very simple cases (like, > a single manifest field addition?) by just reading the docs. > > In contrast, building something that is not driven by developer feedback, > but instead is solving a problem you identified without developer help, can > be quite risky. In the past I've done this, and even went as far as running > an origin trial in the hopes that doing so would generate feedback from > some as-yet-unidentified set of developers. It didn't work out; the origin > trial got zero feedback and the API ended up never launching. > > I hope this helps! > > >> >> I'm keen to hear Alex's take on this! >> >> On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 15:36, Yoav Weiss <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Maybe +Alex Russell <[email protected]> can chime in with his >>> thoughts on that front. >>> I read his comment as saying that since we didn't get a ton of feedback >>> (from a WG, other vendors or developers), an OT would've been a good >>> mechanism to get such feedback from the latter group. And while the risk >>> for this specific feature is small, it might be worthwhile for future, >>> similar additions. That (to me) is not the same as saying "an OT is >>> expected by default", but is more "we need to make sure we got feedback on >>> the API". >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:35 AM Glen Robertson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Not required, but certainly preferred/expected. I was thinking of the >>>> comments on the recent note_taking new_note_url I2S. >>>> The feedback there >>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/tZqSbhmxiGM/m/41pni6THAwAJ> >>>> seemed to be, even for a simple small manifest addition with developer >>>> interest <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/issues/25>, >>>> that an OT would have been preferred to get more developer >>>> signals/feedback. >>>> To me that seems at odds with the advice in the documentation, and the >>>> confusion there (deciding whether an OT was needed) was more problematic >>>> than actually running an OT would be! >>>> >>>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 at 21:38, Yoav Weiss <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't think there's currently an assumption that everything runs >>>>> through an OT, unless some criteria are met. I actually find the >>>>> documentation to match my thinking. >>>>> Do you have examples to the contrary, where an OT was required >>>>> by default? >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 4:05 AM Glen Robertson <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Right now the default assumption in "Should you run an origin trial? >>>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/origin-trials/running-an-origin-trial#TOC-Should-you-run-an-origin-trial->" >>>>>> seems to be that an OT is not run when adding a feature, unless the >>>>>> feature >>>>>> meets particular criteria. This doesn't seem to match the expectation of >>>>>> Blink owners. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it would be helpful to update the doc to make it the default >>>>>> assumption that an OT is run for all new features except in rare cases >>>>>> (in >>>>>> which case it should probably be discussed here on blink-dev to check). >>>>>> >>>>>> WDYT? I can send a CL to update the doc if it sounds reasonable. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Glen >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg_%3DzEGo-CbkUTY-i3qJ1NP3yD_4S0zuJXJ_%3D7ZHEnYmNA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg_%3DzEGo-CbkUTY-i3qJ1NP3yD_4S0zuJXJ_%3D7ZHEnYmNA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfWm-e%3Dmp2NosY%3DfWcjrDgjAJ038JMkCrNoJOLVxt4Jt7Q%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfWm-e%3Dmp2NosY%3DfWcjrDgjAJ038JMkCrNoJOLVxt4Jt7Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg_WuNXQO4hmKe1M7hyTmpCdfJBrPO%3DoNAxSEhsdmPr5wA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg_WuNXQO4hmKe1M7hyTmpCdfJBrPO%3DoNAxSEhsdmPr5wA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfWT39qoWhU%3Dp7QbuVobfYCZQB2hmeNnRYUzR2Ao98bsRQ%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAL5BFfWT39qoWhU%3Dp7QbuVobfYCZQB2hmeNnRYUzR2Ao98bsRQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "blink-dev" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg-%2B%3D5MBe5k9ZwU2733BhgmL9yU6O47tr6V84KUMEbXqbQ%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg-%2B%3D5MBe5k9ZwU2733BhgmL9yU6O47tr6V84KUMEbXqbQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra95Z7ccCOxqmPv%2BUtrEWarUJV3a7LtF5t-XotAydkhsZg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAM0wra95Z7ccCOxqmPv%2BUtrEWarUJV3a7LtF5t-XotAydkhsZg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPV%2BSg8Y5aBj3sjyczxnY08jx_tvY7Uppkb9k3AyQ5yqB1X6jw%40mail.gmail.com.
