LGTM3 On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:45 PM Alex Russell <[email protected]> wrote:
> LGTM2, but I just want to make it clear that I don't think this is a > strong precedent for weak cases for manifest extensions in future. > > The risk here isn't high, but neither is my confidence in the design. An > OT for future designs like these, or a strong up-front case from developers > for it, would help avoid delays. > > Regards > > On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 12:33:48 PM UTC-7 Mike West wrote: > >> LGTM1. >> >> In general, I agree with Alex's suggestion that we should be gathering >> developer feedback via OT, and particularly in cases where there's only >> marginally web-exposed surface so that we get developers exercising the >> embedder-level integration points to give y'all feedback on whether or not >> those integration points meet their expectations. >> >> That said, I don't see much value in an OT for this particular API given >> the way that its web-exposed surface is really all about spelling. I'm also >> a little concerned that an OT would be non-trivial to implement, given the >> fact that we'll be well outside of any particular document context at the >> point when the integration would be executed. So, I think it's reasonable >> to bypass in this particular case. >> >> -mike >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 4:28 AM Glen Robertson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> There have been some expressions of interest on the github issue >>> <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/issues/25> (including >>> some fairly sizable apps). There were also some suggestions to use a more >>> generalised interface, but I'm still convinced by the arguments made in the >>> explainer >>> <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/blob/gh-pages/note_taking-explainer.md#alternatives-considered> >>> (summarized from discussion with other web platform devs >>> <https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/965>) that a specific, >>> top-level field is appropriate. This is more along the lines of >>> bike-shedding so I don't think an OT would help settle the discussion. >>> >>> Is this now sufficient developer interest to ship? >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 at 13:34, Glen Robertson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Alex. >>>> I'd prefer to ship instead of OT if reasonable, so I've asked a few >>>> note-taking-web-app developers directly if they're interested and made a >>>> github issue for them to post on >>>> <https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/issues/25> (I feel like >>>> there wasn't an obvious avenue/CTA for them to publicly express support >>>> before). I've also asked DevRel if they will point people at that link. >>>> >>>> I'll give that a few days and will fall back to an OT (in M94) if we >>>> don't see sufficient interest expressed. >>>> >>>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 at 06:16, Alex Russell <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> hey Glen, >>>>> >>>>> We discussed again today in the OWNERs meeting and it seems like a >>>>> good idea to get stronger developer signals here one way or another. I'm >>>>> LGTM if you want to run an OT instead of shipping directly to do that, >>>>> else >>>>> we can engage with our various developer relations teams to see if there's >>>>> some way to drum up support for the design as-is. >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:23:39 AM UTC-7 Glen Robertson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for checking around MSFT, Alex. >>>>>> >>>>>> The reason we didn't go with an OT here was because the API seemed >>>>>> small and uncontroversial and unlikely to change shape. We already had an >>>>>> interested internal customer (plus there are many other note-taking web >>>>>> apps out there, and existing users of the similar feature for note-taking >>>>>> Chrome Apps). I didn't think it fit any of the bullet points under >>>>>> "Should >>>>>> you run an origin trial? >>>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/blink/origin-trials/running-an-origin-trial#TOC-Should-you-run-an-origin-trial->" >>>>>> (perhaps the default assumption in that documentation should be flipped >>>>>> to >>>>>> "you should run an OT unless in exceptional circumstances"?). >>>>>> >>>>>> If lack of interest is a problem we can disable the flag for M93 and >>>>>> start an OT in M94 instead. Blink Leads, please let me know if that is >>>>>> required. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 04:51, Alex Russell <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> hey Glen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've reached out to teams here at MSFT to see if there are other >>>>>>> folks who need something similar, but don't have much to report. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Given that this is a manifest change, it seems relatively low risk >>>>>>> but the lack of developer interest is a red flag. Is there a reason this >>>>>>> shouldn't go to OT first? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 7:13:29 PM UTC-7 Glen Robertson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there any more needed from me here? M93 stable cut is coming up >>>>>>>> in about 2 weeks and it would be nice to avoid delaying this to the >>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>> release if possible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are still no responses from Mozilla or Webkit on the >>>>>>>> standards positions requests, but the DevRel tweet has positive >>>>>>>> responses >>>>>>>> (38 likes and a positive reply). >>>>>>>> TAG hasn't made any recommendations yet, beyond asking for >>>>>>>> clarifications in the explainer (which I have done). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 18:11, Glen Robertson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There was a generally positive reaction on the DevRel tweet about >>>>>>>>> it <https://twitter.com/ChromiumDev/status/1417062059632644097>. >>>>>>>>> We also have a 1P app that is already using it in beta internally >>>>>>>>> (internal >>>>>>>>> CL <http://cl/380133411>). >>>>>>>>> There was some platform developer discussion here >>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/965> that led us to the >>>>>>>>> current design, but that was platform developers, not app developers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is there some other avenue I can follow to get more feedback on >>>>>>>>> the API? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 at 05:22, Alex Russell < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As discussed in today's OWNERS meeting, it would be helpful to >>>>>>>>>> get developer signals. It's going to be hard to make a case that we >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> ship this w/o some form of input from folks who need or want it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 7:44:09 AM UTC-7 Colin Blundell >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:14 AM Jason Robbins < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. I have a pull request in review for the additional >>>>>>>>>>>> field-level help text: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/GoogleChrome/chromium-dashboard/pull/1440/files >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> jason! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Looks great, thank you! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:55 AM Colin Blundell < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:15 AM Glen Robertson < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the clarification! In that case, the answer is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely "yes". crbug.com/1185678 is a good record of code >>>>>>>>>>>>>> added to support the feature, though it relies on existing code >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> supported note-taking Chrome Apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If possible, it would be nice to have a brief version of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question's intent shown in the I2S template generated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chromestatus! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the feedback! I assume that you mean something >>>>>>>>>>>>> like: "Reply "yes" here if your feature has any implementation >>>>>>>>>>>>> code in >>>>>>>>>>>>> //chrome, even if that's for functionality on top of the spec, so >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> other //content embedders can be aware of that functionality." ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +Jason Robbins <[email protected]>, would you be able to >>>>>>>>>>>>> add this? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Colin >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 00:57, Colin Blundell < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Glen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comment inline about the "requires code in //chrome?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 8:27 AM Glen Robertson < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your replies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding signals: I've now requested positions from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mozilla and Webkit, and asked for some help on the web >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer front from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DevRel. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding web platform tests: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the spec'd behaviour >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://wicg.github.io/manifest-incubations/index.html#new_note_url-member> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is intentionally that the user agent has no obligation to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the new field. It may use it in some way, or ignore it. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing spec'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour of the web app manifest parser is that it must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore unknown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields[*]. Therefore, if we are testing compliance with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spec, I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there is new behaviour to test here. If you think I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should add a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note-taking-specific WPT test anyway I can. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *: I can't see a test for this, so I sent a CL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://crrev.com/c/3038042>. And another CL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://crrev.com/c/3038318> for adding a similar check in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manifest_parser_unittest, because manual WPT tests aren't very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reassuring! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re: "Requires code in //chrome? False" / OS integrations: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't quite sure about the intent of this question. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spec doesn't require any code in chrome, and the field is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parsed on all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platforms, but we do have code in //chrome to do an OS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integration with it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The OS integration is on Chrome OS only: it shows the app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the list of note-taking apps in CrOS settings (already >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existed for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note-taking Chrome Apps, but only visible if you have a stylus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or --force-enable-stylus-tools) and, if selected by the user >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in that list, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the app can be launched from the stylus palette in the toolbar. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good question! I just sent out information about this field. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The intent is for feature developers to reply "yes" here if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their feature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has implementation code in //chrome, even if that's for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functionality on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top of the spec. The reason is that other //content embedders >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror that functionality. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Colin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happens when 2+ webapps all define note taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The spec doesn't define any required behaviour from the UA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon detecting a note-taking app. It is similarly up to the UA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with multiple note-taking apps. In CrOS the list of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note-taking apps are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shown in stylus settings and the user may select one to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stylus palette. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this capability feature detectable? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. If it's not supported then note-taking web apps just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operate like any other web app. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll wait on feedback from TAG and developer/vendor signals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 at 19:16, Yoav Weiss < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 11:08:38 AM UTC+2 Yoav Weiss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:34:35 AM UTC+2 Mike West >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 5:08 AM Glen Robertson < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contact emails [email protected], >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Explainer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WICG/manifest-incubations/blob/gh-pages/note_taking-explainer.md >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading through the explainer I wonder: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * What happens when 2+ webapps all define note taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities? Which one wins? Or would the UA then present >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the user with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice, similar to native apps? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Is this capability feature detectable? Is there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something developers can do when it's not supported? (I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guessing there's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not much they can, but want to confirm) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Specification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://wicg.github.io/manifest-incubations/index.html#note_taking-member >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> API spec Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Parses a web app manifest entry for a URL to open to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take a new note in a note-taking web app, allowing OS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chrome for desktop release: M93 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blink component Blink >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG review >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/648 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The TAG seem engaged, so it's worthwhile to wait for their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG review status Pending >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Risks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Gecko*: No signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *WebKit*: No signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please ask for signals, as per >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bit.li/blink-signals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly on the developer signals front, we have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goo.gle/developer-signals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ? Yes. No required behaviour. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure I follow. It doesn't look like any web >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform tests contain the string `note_taking`. Even if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> web-facing behavior this influences, it seems reasonable to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add it to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test that verifies its parsing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flag name blink::features::kWebAppNoteTaking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? False >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1185678, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see quite a bit of code that's landed in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //chrome/browser/{chromeos,web_applications, etc}. It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature depends upon the embedder doing some work to create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an integration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a platform-level (or UA-level, I suppose) note-taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> application? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given that, are there platform restrictions on this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature? Or is this limited to a subset of the platforms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blink supports? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracking bug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1185678 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Launch bug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1189357 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Measurement When a web app is launched to create a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> note, a LaunchResult::WEB_APP_SUCCESS is recorded. See: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:chrome/browser/chromeos/note_taking_helper.h;drc=d7a02514bb30afce607817fd2e8ef8a8af559739;l=130 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5205972320518144 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Status <https://www.chromestatus.com>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 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