From: Philip Potter > On 4 May 2010 13:45, Bob McConnell <r...@cbord.com> wrote: >> From: Uri Guttman >> >>>>>>>> "HP" == Harry Putnam <rea...@newsguy.com> writes: >>> >>> HP> "Uri Guttman" <u...@stemsystems.com> writes: >>> >> nope. been doing this for 35 years and it is solid advice. you >> can't do >>> >> a proper program unless you have a proper goal which is what the >>> >> specification is. >>> >>> HP> Some of it looks suspiciously like hair splitting and karping of >> the >>> HP> first order. >>> >>> what you think is hair splitting, we think of as moving mountains. >> this >>> is what experience in developing projects (big and small) tells us. >> you >>> came here to learn perl. there is much more to programming than >> learning >>> a particular language. in fact most programming skills and knowledge >> is >>> language independent and that is also important to know. >> >> This is sounding more and more like an argument between waterfall and >> agile managers about the best methodology for developing applications. >> In waterfall you always started with a locked down requirements >> document, but in agile we never do. The best we can get is the product >> manager's interpretation of what she heard the client describe. That >> usually changes as soon as she sees the first prototype. >> >> Harry has said he is just beginning to learn the language. As a result, >> I would expect his short range goals to be adjusted as he learns what is >> possible and what it takes to accomplish it. That does require some >> 'driving around' to get an idea of the lay of the land and the paths >> available to get from here to there. It is also called experimenting >> with the tool set, or working through the exercises at the end of the >> chapter. As long as he is learning, what difference does it make what >> his final destination is. Do any of us know what that will be when we >> start playing in a new sand box? > > You have to start with *some* goal. Even in agile, you start with > stories to work out in what direction you are headed. You formalise > your requirements into tests and then you start coding. Yes, you > revise your stories, requirements and tests as you learn more about > the design and the technology, but you still need to start from > somewhere. > > Agile is a more nuanced approach to having everything planned out > before you begin coding but it's still the same underlying model of > [requirements] -> [design] -> [code], just repeated daily ad nauseum. > > I do agree that there is a contiuum here, with "totally uninformed > undirected exploring and experimentation" on one end, and "totally > preplanned careful single-minded coding" on the other. Waterfall is > totally preplanned, agile is somewhere in the middle. I don't think > anyone advocates having *no plan* at all and guessing everywhere.
Your version of agile sounds a *lot* more formal than ours. We are nowhere near the middle, but much closer to the 'no plan' end of the spectrum. The story we get is often a one liner with more wish than reality. I have thrown out several weeks of work over the past year because what the PM gave us to work from wasn't what she or the client meant. We have one developer that has described the situation like this: "Management asked me to build a box. But as soon as that box was done, they looked at it and said it was supposed to have round corners. So we rounded the corners and then they said it was supposed to have a lid. So we build the lid and then they said, the lid should have hinges..." He implemented one PDA application from scratch three times before they were happy with it, changing SDKs twice and the target OS once. Yes, we have a real problem getting management to give us useful requirements before we start a project, or even part way through it when we show them prototypes. We try to pry more details out of them, and do come close most of the time, but it is about as easy as pulling hen's teeth. The PDA developer and I are now waiting to see which of us retires first. He has less than 400 days left. If I decide to wait until the 25th anniversary of my date of hire, I have 518 days. But I will be eligible for early retirement in 273 days. Bob McConnell -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscr...@perl.org For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-h...@perl.org http://learn.perl.org/
