> -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:bacula-devel- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern Sibbald > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:37 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Robert Nelson; 'Shane Coughlan'; 'bacula-users' > Subject: Re: [Bacula-devel] Bacula Status -- change of direction > formyparticipation in the project > > On Thursday 19 April 2007 23:26, Robert Nelson wrote: > > Comments inline below > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:bacula-devel- > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern Sibbald > > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:10 AM > > > To: bacula-devel; bacula-users > > > Cc: Shane Coughlan > > > Subject: [Bacula-devel] Bacula Status -- change of direction for > > > myparticipation in the project > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of > becoming > > > a > > > gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is > increasing > > > significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side > of > > > Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. > > > > > > Bacula has received quite a number of submissions other than my > > > contributions > > > over the years. However, in general, these submissions have been made > > > without documentation (leaving it to me to document) and the developer > > > after > > > a short time has for various reasons moved on to other things (change > of > > > job, > > > change of life status, other interests, ...). All this is normal, but > > > what I > > > find very disappointing is that with only a couple of exceptions that > come > > > to > > > mind there are no permanent Bacula developers other than myself. > (Just so > > > that there is no confusion or ill feelings, Scott, Dan, and Eric have > been > > > around for quite a while and have and are making significant > contributions > > > -- > > > there are certainly others who don't come to mind immediately, so, > please > > > accept my appologies -- also, I think the users list is working quite > > > well. > > > What I am talking about is the lack of highly qualified, committed, > > > and "permanent" Bacula developers). > > > > > > > I hope I'm not one of the developers that you feel isn't qualified or > > committed. I'm not sure what you mean by "permanent". > > I think you took my statements from the wrong angle. I wasn't complaining > about any of the existing developers, but indicating that the Bacula > project > does not have sufficient qualified, committed, and permanent (long term) > developers. I gave an idication somewhat above by what I mean by > permanent. > > In your case, you are certainly qualified, probably the most technically > qualified of all the people who have worked on Bacula. You have not been > around long enough for me to consider you "permanent". Only time will > tell. > However your participation, which is very much appreciated seems to come > in > bursts rather than consistently day after day. This is fine, as I will > accept all the help I can get in any form. Example, your last email was > on 6 > March. >
My last emails on the list were Apr 6th not Mar 6th. For the last two weeks I've been working on the new monitor program which is why I haven't been posting to the list. > > > > I answer the questions on the mailing list that are specific to the > Windows > > version. I usually ignore those that are general Bacula questions, even > if > > they are running Windows, unless there is some Windows specific aspect. > > That's fine. > > > > > > > > My point here, is that today, I am essentially the only developer > doing > > > documentation, the only developer fixing bugs, the only developer > doing > > > testing on the different platforms. After 7+ years of doing it 12-14 > > > hours a > > > day for 6 and sometimes 7 days a week, I am more than a bit > disappointed > > > that > > > there isn't more help. The fault may possibly be my own, but what > ever > > > the > > > case may be that is where we are. > > > > > > > I have also been fixing bugs. > > Yes, you have fixed bugs, and I appreciate that. However, I don't > consider > you as an active developer that is doing bug fixing. I will give you a > few > examples, and they aren't at all intended to criticize you, but to > indicate > the level of committment that I see in your participation (which is of > course > for you to define) and thus indicate to you more clearly why I made the > Win32 > decision. > > The last time you made a commit was 15 March over a month ago, and before > that > it was 7 Feb. This is fine, and I am happy to get those commits/fixes. > I'm not aware of other bugs in the Windows specific code. > > > > > As an example of what I am lamenting here is that there is a Win 2003 > bug > > > open > > > since 20 March where restore of encrypted (and compressed if I > remember > > > right) data fails. Another example is that despite my repeated > requests > > > over > > > something like a six month period, no one (at this moment) has "signed > up" > > > to > > > do Win32, Solaris, or FreeBSD regression testing. > > > > > > > As far as this specific bug is concerned, I just realized it is assigned > to > > me. However I thought there was someone else working on the Encryption > > code. Even though this problem is reported on Windows the problem is > more > > likely to be a generic problem with encryption support. > > This bug is a good example of what I am complaining about. The encryption > code was originally written by another programmer, but the last serious > bug > was fixed by me (significantly after notifying the programmer). > Logically, > as you mention, it should be the original programmer that fixes it, but > you > are already aware that does not work well in this case, because like me, > you > have previously identified and fixed a major encryption (actually > decryption > bug). > > Concerning specifically the bug report # 807 in question. I consider it a > critical bug (the worst kind) because a user is not able to restore data > that > he wrote. It may not be Win32 specific, but on first view, I am assuming > it > is. The bug report was submitted the 20th of March, and as far as I can > tell, there has been no progress in resolving it. Contrary to what you > say > above, you did know that it was assigned to you, because you responded to > the > bug the 20th of March, and presumably you assigned it to yourself or the > system had already done so. > > I want to make clear that I am not complaining about either the original > encryption programmer nor about you. This is Open Software, so you are > totally free to respond or not. > > However, having a critical bug open against a Win32 (server if I am not > mistaken), is not something that I can support/fix, and given the time the > bug has been open, the level of support for the Win32 does not live up to > my > standards, thus I have decided to drop support for it rather than provide > a > product that users believe is supported and then provide no support. > > Should the support level improve in the future, perhaps we can support > Win32, > or perhaps I will find commercial users who have a corporate interest in > having it supported, then things will change. > That bug is a client bug. It is interesting that you list this as one of the reasons that you are dropping the Storage and Director server daemons. I did not assign it to myself, looking at the bug history the original reporter assigned the bug. I responded to bug because I saw it on the bug email list. > > > > > My solution to this problem is several fold: > > > > > > 1. As of release 2.2.0, Win32, Solaris, and FreeBSD will no longer > > > be "officially" supported platforms. So that there is no > > > misunderstanding, I > > > definitely would like to see them supported, but I am no longer going > to > > > do > > > it alone, which means that I will accept patches for them, I will not > > > accept > > > bug reports that are specific to those platforms, they will be > documented > > > as "use if it works for you but don't complain if it doesn't", and the > > > project will no longer supply binaries for the Director and Storage > daemon > > > for Win32. Users can build it themselves if they want to use it. > > > > > > > I don't understand why you are taking this position in regards to the > > Windows version. We've talked a number of times about the support and > > documentation issues. I agreed to provide support for any Windows > specific > > problems which I have been doing. > > Thanks for your support. I sincerely hope you continue to provide it. > However, as I wrote above what you are currently doing is not sufficient > for > Win32 (other than the client) to be officially supported by Bacula at the > moment. > > > As far as documentation is concerned, you > > said you would make the changes if I provided a description of the > > differences. In fact, in the last email you seemed quite happy when I > > mentioned that there aren't any real configuration differences other > than > > the device names. > > Yes, what you write is correct, but it isn't the full story. I had > previously > asked you for documentation and when you said you were not fluent in LaTeX > I > offered to take ASCII and convert it to LaTeX. Then when no text was > forth > coming, I (stupidly) offered to write it myself. Rarely, but sometimes, I > do > go back on a promise to do something. This is one such case. I've decided > that we do not support Win32 server nor will we ship the binaries until we > can support it in the way that the project has always done in the past: > > 1. have full documentation (there is none in the manual on the Win32 > specific > parts of the server). > > 2. Have a person willing to look at and find solutions to serious bugs so > that > the bug doesn't sit in limbo for one month. > > Again, I really want to emphasize that I am not criticizing you or any > other > developer. Developers are free to come and go and choose what they want > to > work on. You are not getting paid to work on Bacula (nor am I). However, > if > I cannot find the people to do the documentation, nor to fix the bugs, > then I > think it is reasonable to provide the code on an "as is" basis without > officially supporting it. > > > > > The README file included with the installation documents all the > differences > > of which I'm aware. > > The README needs to be integrated into the manual -- I haven't looked at > it so > I am not sure what parts are appropriate for inclusion in the manual, and > I > suspect the manual needs a lot more things, such as most of the > information > that you have provided in emails for debugging and using your new Win32 > utilities. To get this all in the manual is not a non-trivial amount of > work. > > > > > I periodically run the Windows regression tests (which I ported). > You've > > also asked for help running the regression tests which I agreed to do. > But > > each time you've indicated it would be at some point in the future but > > you've never got back to me that you were ready. > > Please don't put this on my back. > > I sent an email a week or two ago saying that I needed testing for Win32, > Solaris, and FreeBSD for the current SVN. I got back no response, thus my > decision to "unsupport" those products until we have a resolution. It > seems > likely that there is now one for FreeBSD -- I have received back > indication > that all the tests run for FreeBSD, and we are moving forward defining a > specific procedure. I have not received such confirmation for Solaris nor > Win32. > Actually the mail I saw was sent on the 15th, 4 days ago. > > > > I also offered to do the Windows releases for you and you agreed it > would > > help. However, whenever you are making a release you've said that you > were > > taking care of the Windows release. > > Yes, what you write here is true. Since I run the Win32 client, I do > build > the binaries for release (as I package the source for release), and I do > run > the Win32 client in production. That is not a problem for me, and I don't > have a problem continuing to do it. I also would not have a problem > transferring it to someone else, but it isn't really necessary at this > moment. > > Be careful in the terminology. I am happy to create a binary Win32 > package > because it is done 100% on my Linux machine, but the term "take care of > the > Windows release" implies a lot more (documentation, support, ...). And it > is > the documentation and support that I consider for the moment insufficient. > > > > > Currently I'm working on the new Bacula Tray application. This will > replace > > the built-in tray code. It will eliminate the need to run using the > SYSTEM > > account. It also allows remote systems to be monitored. Encryption > (TLS) > > is supported ensuring secure password and data exchange between the > monitor > > application and the remote servers. > > Great. > > > > > I believe this should eliminate four of the most common Windows issues / > > requests: > > > > Ability to run using account other than SYSTEM > > I assume you are referring only to the tray monitor and not the Client. No I am talking about all three daemons. The only requirement for the SYSTEM accounts comes from the service needing to interact with the desktop. > > > > > Restrict users from stopping the service from the tray application. > > > > Access the monitor application from non-console remote sessions. > > > > Encrypted sessions between the monitor application and the servers > > for use over the internet > > Great. > > > > > > 2. I previously suggested creating a formal Bacula Open Source project > or > > > a > > > foundation, but I have totally dropped that idea due to lack of > community > > > participation. > > > > > > > The only requests related to this have been the signed copyright > > assignments. If there is something else you expect from us, please let > us > > know. > > I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. You have done > everything > that is needed for the copyright assignment -- that is no problem. You > personally don't need to do anything more than you are doing, unless you > want > Win32 server officially supported, and I think I've explained that above. > > What I meant by item 2 was that I think the Bacula Open Source project (as > opposed to my efforts to help 3rd parties to provide Bacula support) > should > be more officially organized along the lines of other large projects, with > a "charter" and a "governing board", ... However, I've dropped that > project -- at the moment it is not something important for the Bacula > project. But you are saying that you are dropping it due to lack of participation. However I haven't seen any requests for participation or indication of what we could do to help. > > Best regards, > > Kern > > > > > > 3. As of today, the gnome-console (renamed bgnome-console) and wx- > console > > > (renamed bwx-console) are deprecated and no longer supported by me. > If > > > someone else wants to pick up support of them, I'll be very happy to > > > accept > > > patches. > > > > > > 4. I am no longer personally going to maintain the projects list > (Feature > > > Requests). If someone wants to pick up maintaining it including the > > > voting, > > > I would be very happy. Obviously I'll continue to work on projects > that > > > personally interest me. > > > > > > 5. I will be devoting more of my time to a project that I previously > > > mentioned > > > that will provide training and support for Bacula engineers and for > 3rd > > > party > > > Bacula Service organizations. The support provided will not be direct > > > customer support but certification and level 3 support for > professional > > > service companies with the goal of promoting Bacula usage and code > > > submissions. > > > > > > The concept here is that I am convinced that commercial organizations > want > > > to > > > use Bacula (many use Solaris, so it is critical for them) but are > hindered > > > by > > > the lack of qualified professional service. By insuring professional > > > services for Bacula, I believe that we can compensate for the lack of > > > commuity participation in the Bacula development process. This is > because > > > commerical/governmental/educational organizations will make > significant > > > contributions to the project when they have professional support. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Kern > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Bacula-devel mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-devel > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Bacula-devel mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > Bacula-devel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. 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