@Ian, like I said, slightly increasing the width to accommodate menus won't do much harm. Programs full of functions like GIMP would be used maximised anyway.
While I can't comment on user knowing it, I think the title button (that Renze suggested) would be good place to allow dragging. I can't think of any other solution, but I still stand for menu in title bar. @Renze, sorry to have misunderstood, but I think menu bars should be besides the button you suggest. On 16 April 2011 20:40, Ian Santopietro <isan...@gmail.com> wrote: > Some windows mare exceedingly small (Empathy) or have a very large number > of menus (GIMP). Just because this is true for most windows doesn't mean we > should leave them out. > > As for moving the window, it's difficult for a new user to know that, and > it requires a few seconds before you can move the window, which could > decrease productivity. Also, some user click and hold through the menus, and > that would create confusion when a user tries to drag their mouse through > the menus and the window moves instead. > > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 10:31, Toki Tahmid <oxw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> @Mitja, you're misunderstanding, he recommends that menu appears besides >> title button not inside. >> >> @Ian, why can we not allow long mouse button press to drag windows on >> title bar real estate? Accessing menus or anything on the title bar would >> not require long presses, but simple clicks. So after one or two seconds, if >> the mouse hasn't moved to menu options, the cursor can handle dragging the >> window. >> >> Menus do not usually number more than five or six, so on typical windows, >> widening them slightly would go a long way. I'm against fading in of menus >> then disappearing because it will escape the view of any inattentive user, >> Menus can be slightly faded in the title bar as I suggested before, while >> appearing fully coloured on mouse over. >> >> >> On 16 April 2011 20:07, Ian Santopietro <isan...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> > Integrate the menu in the titlebar and have it smoothly fade in when >>> the mouse moves near to it. >>> >>> What if I want to move a window? On a multitouch device I can use >>> three-finger drag or the MT Grab Handles, but on an old fashioned mouse and >>> keyboard, I can't do it at all since the title bar is now not used for >>> dragging the windows around. And it doesn't solve many of the problems >>> associated with menus right now; What happens when menus are too long for >>> windows is a big one. Problems like these are what the global menu are >>> really trying to solve, not saving vertical screen space. We have the >>> titlebar integration for that one. >>> >>> >>> > I think someone had suggested that when the application first starts, >>> the window title is displayed for a few seconds before fading to the menu. >>> If a window is idle for a while the title fades in. >>> >>> I think that may have been me (if not, I apologize), and it was slightly >>> different. But this is a good solution to use with the global menu and the >>> clutter issue. I initially suggested showing the menu for a second or two >>> before switching to the title completely, but the one you described would >>> work too. My only concern is that the title would occasionally be flashing >>> in and out and alternating with the menus. This could be a distraction. I >>> recommend simply displaying the title for a few seconds when the window >>> opens, then fading to the menu and staying there permanently. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 04:36, Christian Mackintosh < >>> christian.mackint...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The points you described are valid, but with the increasing of screen >>>>> sizes and the use of laptops, it's very annoying to move the mouse all the >>>>> way over to the panel using the touchpad. On the other hand, users are >>>>> already accustomed to have the menu bars in the window, so I don't see any >>>>> valid reason to move the menu bar of all the applications to the panel. >>>>> Having many small windows opened at a given moment will only increase the >>>>> frustration - go to panel do something, again drag mouse to next window, >>>>> drag it back up, do something, and it goes on and on... >>>>> >>>> >>>> I could not agree more! >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> In any case, I am in agreement with your solutions, and the only think >>>>> I want to add is to change the complete hidden nature of the current menu >>>>> bars. Users new to Unity would be totally clueless as to where the menu >>>>> bar >>>>> is, regardless of it's position on the panel or title bar. If the menus >>>>> are >>>>> slightly faded out and fades in on mouse over would look good on top of >>>>> being functional. >>>>> >>>> >>>> This is a real problem. I think fading in (like a reverse notification >>>> bubble, as some have suggested) would really help things, but even if the >>>> menus remain hidden I think users are far more likely to find them if >>>> they're integrated in the window titlebar rather than the panel, because if >>>> they're looking for a menu they're going to be mousing around the window >>>> they're in, not the top of the screen. >>>> >>>> Nonetheless, wherever the menus end up, currently we *are* just relying >>>> on users to accidentally stumble upon the menus, which seems utterly >>>> bizarre >>>> to me. I know this has been discussed on the mailing list before, but >>>> something really needs to be done about it. >>>> >>>> Personally I would take your suggestion, Toki. Integrate the menu in the >>>> titlebar and have it smoothly fade in when the mouse moves near to it. >>>> Failing that (I understand that it's difficult to implement fading on >>>> proximity) I think someone had suggested that when the application first >>>> starts, the window title is displayed for a few seconds before fading to >>>> the >>>> menu. If a window is idle for a while the title fades in. IMHO this would >>>> also be a neat solution. >>>> >>>> Christian >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16 April 2011 14:12, Christian Mackintosh < >>>>> christian.mackint...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Toki, >>>>>> >>>>>> What Greg was saying, I think, was that throwing the mouse up to the >>>>>> top edge of the screen is a very easy thing to do, in that you don't >>>>>> have to >>>>>> aim for any target. The way menu bars normally are, and the way both he >>>>>> and >>>>>> I, amongst others, have proposed, means that you are aiming for a smaller >>>>>> target in the middle of the screen, which may be slightly slower. >>>>>> However, I >>>>>> don't actually think that that is really a valid concern because >>>>>> currently >>>>>> when I try to use the global menu it often works like this: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) Throw mouse to top of screen >>>>>> 2) Notice that this is the wrong menu (if I'm lucky! A few times I've >>>>>> started searching in vain through a menu, only to realise after a few >>>>>> seconds that it's not the one I want) >>>>>> 3) Move mouse to application, click to focus >>>>>> 4) Move mouse back to top of screen >>>>>> 5) Use menu >>>>>> >>>>>> Whereas if the menubars were integrated into the restored window's >>>>>> titlebar, the process would be thus: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) Move mouse to application >>>>>> 2) Use menu, even if the window wasn't focused. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore, as I said earlier, at the very least it won't be any >>>>>> slower than the previous behaviour of having separate menu bars. >>>>>> >>>>>> Christian >>>>>> >>>>>> P.S. I think(?) you forgot to CC this message to ayatana, so it just >>>>>> went to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Toki Tahmid <oxw...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the masses has already the sense to find the titlebar in the >>>>>>> window they're interacting in, so that doesn't count... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16 April 2011 13:37, Christian Mackintosh < >>>>>>> christian.mackint...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You are absolutely right IMHO. Nothing more to add, just lending my >>>>>>>> support! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Greg K Nicholson >>>>>>>> <g...@gkn.me.uk>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > However, Greg, is the downside you are describing for the current >>>>>>>>> layout >>>>>>>>> > with menu bar indiscriminately in title bar or the layout you're >>>>>>>>> describing? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The disadvantage I described was for the layout I described. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Having the menu always in the panel makes it quicker to acquire and >>>>>>>>> click, which is good, but it appears connected to the wrong window. >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>> my view, having the menu appear to be connected to the right window >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> more important than speed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Put another way, the problem with the current layout is this: even >>>>>>>>> though the menu is in a consistent place all the time, it doesn't >>>>>>>>> *feel* consistent, and that's confusing. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> ☮♥☯ >>>>>>>>> Greg K Nicholson >>>>>>>>> http://gkn.me.uk >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>>>>>>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>>>>>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>> Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana >>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Santopietro >>> >>> "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast >>> Ofer middangeard monnum sended" >>> >>> Pa gur yv y porthaur? >>> >>> Public GPG key (RSA): >>> http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234 >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Ian Santopietro > > "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast > Ofer middangeard monnum sended" > > Pa gur yv y porthaur? > > Public GPG key (RSA): > http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234 > >
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