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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR
Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text
(Jon Lewis)
2. Re: Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR
Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text
(Mohibul Mahmud)
3. Re: Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR
Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text
(Owen DeLong)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 22:31:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jon Lewis <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify
ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM
Text
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
Please explain what is confusing?about the current usage of both LIR and ISP?
The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;
?https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively?the same
thing.
Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP
= LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests
there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
From the page:
Let?s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry
(LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined
in ARIN?s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
?A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.?
You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR
interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says ?ISP,? you can
think of that as ?ISP/LIR.?
So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct
allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 23:57:55 -0400
From: Mohibul Mahmud <[email protected]>
To: Jon Lewis <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify
ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM
Text
Message-ID:
<caddavggpfdmyvufqnznbn5t9sfbyjaq62ql-ruouv-et0tt...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello everyone,
Thank you for the continued thoughtful discussion on this draft policy. The
core challenge is balancing global precision (the ?LIR? term of art)
with regional
accessibility and consistency (the ?ISP? label used in ARIN?s operations
and documentation).
A practical example of how this balance is handled elsewhere comes from the
DNS community. Both ICANN and the IETF distinguish between ?authoritative
name server? (precise, technical role) and the broader term ?name server?
or ?DNS server? (commonly used in general documentation). For example:
- ICANN?s glossary provides a specific definition of ?authoritative name
server.?
https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name
- IETF RFC 9499 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/> notes that
both authoritative servers and resolvers are ?often called DNS servers or
name servers, even though they serve different roles.?
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles
This model works because the precise role is rigorously defined, while the
common terminology remains usable for general understanding.
I suggest ARIN adopt a similar dual-term approach:
1. In NRPM text: Use ?ISP (LIR)? on first reference in sections, then
?ISP? with the clarified meaning.
2. Glossary definition: Add an NRPM glossary entry: ?ISP: For the
purposes of this document, ISP is equivalent to Local Internet Registry
(LIR).?
3. Operational consistency: Continue using ?ISP? in templates, guides,
and ARIN?s website, backed by the clarified definition.
This approach addresses the ambiguity directly. It acknowledges the global
standard (LIR) while respecting ARIN?s established conventions (ISP),
ensuring the policy is both precise for experts and accessible to newcomers.
Would the authors and community be open to incorporating this kind of
dual-term definition into the draft policy text?
Best regards,
Mohibul Mahmud
On Sat, Sep 20, 2025 at 10:32?PM Jon Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
Please explain what is confusing about the current usage of both LIR and
ISP?
The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;
https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively the
same thing.
Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP
= LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests
there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
From the page:
Let?s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry
(LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined
in ARIN?s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
?A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.?
You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR
interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says ?ISP,? you can
think of that as ?ISP/LIR.?
So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct
allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public
key________________________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 21:58:01 -0700
From: Owen DeLong <[email protected]>
To: Mohibul Mahmud <[email protected]>
Cc: Jon Lewis <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify
ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM
Text
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
So your suggestion in my estimation would be roughly equivalent to publishing
all technical drawings and schematics showing measurements in inches, but
redefining an inch to be 32mm and having a note somewhere explaining that
throughout the drawing,
Inches are actually 32mm long instead of 25.4mm.
I don?t think this reduces confusion, but rather exacerbates and prolongs it. I
truly don?t understand the advantage of not simply having a proper definition
of LIR and noting that said definition includes, but is not limited to all
classes of ISP. If you want to also define ISP for ARIN policy purposes as
including what most people think of as an ISP plus everything else in the LIR
category, sure, I don?t mind that, but let?s please standardize ARIN
terminology with the rest of the world and user LIR.
While NRPM doesn?t control ARIN business practices, were we to do that, I?d
certainly submit an ACSP encouraging the board and staff to adopt LIR as their
standard terminology as well and I?m pretty sure that staff and the board would
actually follow the community?s lead here.
Owen
On Sep 20, 2025, at 20:57, Mohibul Mahmud <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Thank you for the continued thoughtful discussion on this draft policy. The core challenge is balancing global precision (the ?LIR? term of art) with regional accessibility and consistency (the ?ISP? label used in ARIN?s operations and documentation).
A practical example of how this balance is handled elsewhere comes from the DNS community. Both ICANN and the IETF distinguish between ?authoritative name server? (precise, technical role) and the broader term ?name server? or ?DNS server? (commonly used in general documentation). For example:
ICANN?s glossary provides a specific definition of ?authoritative name server.?
https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name
IETF RFC 9499 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/> notes that both authoritative servers and resolvers are ?often called DNS servers or name servers, even though they serve different roles.?
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles
This model works because the precise role is rigorously defined, while the common terminology remains usable for general understanding.
I suggest ARIN adopt a similar dual-term approach:
In NRPM text: Use ?ISP (LIR)? on first reference in sections, then ?ISP? with
the clarified meaning.
Glossary definition: Add an NRPM glossary entry: ?ISP: For the purposes of this
document, ISP is equivalent to Local Internet Registry (LIR).?
Operational consistency: Continue using ?ISP? in templates, guides, and ARIN?s
website, backed by the clarified definition.
This approach addresses the ambiguity directly. It acknowledges the global standard (LIR) while respecting ARIN?s established conventions (ISP), ensuring the policy is both precise for experts and accessible to newcomers.
Would the authors and community be open to incorporating this kind of dual-term definition into the draft policy text?
Best regards,
Mohibul Mahmud
On Sat, Sep 20, 2025 at 10:32?PM Jon Lewis <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
Please explain what is confusing about the current usage of both LIR and ISP?
The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;
https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively the same
thing.
Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP
= LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests
there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
>From the page:
Let?s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry
(LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined
in ARIN?s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
?A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.?
You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR
interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says ?ISP,? you can
think of that as ?ISP/LIR.?
So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct
allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public
key________________________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any
issues.
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