Re the actual CFJ: "receive" Is not defined in the rules. But in Rule 2577:
For an entity to gain (historical syn. earn) an asset is for that
asset to be created in that entity's possession. To grant an
entity an asset is to create it in eir possession. To grant an
entity a set of assets is to create each asset in the set in eir
possession.
By expressio unius, grant and gain are the _only_ verbs that describe this
phenomenon.
The correct passive form of granting is gaining, not receiving, and the
definition of what happens when you grant is limited to gaining, and
excludes receiving.
On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 1:52 AM <agora-discussion-requ...@agoranomic.org>
wrote:
> Send agora-discussion mailing list submissions to
> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agora-discussion
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> agora-discussion-requ...@agoranomic.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> agora-discussion-ow...@agoranomic.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of agora-discussion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: BUS: ???? ?????? (?????? ??? ???? ??) (nix)
> 2. Re: BUS: Registering (Yachay Wayllukuq)
> 3. Re: BUS: Registering (nix)
> 4. Re: BUS: gift to my friend murphy (nix)
> 5. Re: BUS: Registering (nix)
> 6. Re: BUS: Registering (Gaelan Steele)
> 7. Re: BUS: ???? ?????? (?????? ??? ???? ??) (Gaelan Steele)
> 8. Re: Re: BUS: Registering (ais523)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 12:55:43 -0600
> From: nix <ag...@nullarch.com>
> To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: ???? ?????? (?????? ??? ???? ??)
> Message-ID: <44643de0-58d2-46ef-82a1-c6626bd1d...@nullarch.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 3/4/24 12:19, Goren Barak via agora-business wrote:
> > ???? ????,
> > ? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ? ???? ? ?????
> > ? ??????, ??? "? ?????? ? ?????? ?? ?????"
> >
> > ????? ????
>
> A few notes on this, besides the fact it probably doesn't work for
> effort reasons:
>
> I assume you meant to make an intent here, you first need to publish
> something to the effect of "I intend to declare apathy..." and then do
> the "I declare apathy" after the intent has been around and un-objected
> long enough.
>
> Even if the intent was written correctly, the second sentence doesn't do
> anything. You cannot add a non-rule-defined restriction on objections,
> so objections like Janet's (where e objected without even being sure
> there's an intent) still work.
>
> --
> nix
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 09:36:29 +0100
> From: Yachay Wayllukuq <yachaywayllu...@gmail.com>
> To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering
> Message-ID:
> <
> can759w8hmxhvx9wto65fjx_onig6nrwzxoddasvqtcv+6g9...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I favor this case, because I'd find it nice to do. I'd just like to judge
> something and this seems interesting.
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 5:38?AM Aris via agora-business <
> agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 8:33 PM Rowan Evans via agora-business <
> > agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I register as LegallyBearded
> > >
> > > I grant myself 52 welcome packages, each containing 1 stamp.
> > >
> > > I pay 51 stamps of the same type to gain (51-1)*2 = 100 radiance.
> > >
> > > I observe that my radiance is 100, and win.
> > >
> > > ----
> > > CFJ
> > > Does "granting" an asset cause it to be received?
> > >
> > > Brief explanation. By rule 2499: Any player CAN, by announcement,
> grant a
> > > Welcome Package to any player if the grantee has neither received one
> > since
> > > e last registered nor in the last 30 days.
> > >
> > > By rule 2577: Granting an asset causes it to be "created in that
> entity's
> > > possession". I take this to be meaningfully different from "receiving"
> an
> > > asset, because granting is distinguished from the "transfer" of an
> asset
> > in
> > > this same rule.
> > >
> > > And as a point of interest: most other references to "receiving" in the
> > > rules require the item to be sent.
> > >
> > > FOR: When you create an item in your own possession, it hardly makes
> > sense
> > > to say you received it. If I make a paper plane, can I say I received
> it?
> > > From where? Doesn't make sense in plain English.
> > > AGAINST: This scam ignores the intent of the clause it's trying to get
> > > around.
> > >
> >
> > Erm... that CFJ doesn't do what you want it to. CFJs are supposed to be
> > statements, not questions, and interpreting something out of context is
> > different from interpreting it in context.
> >
> > I CFJ, barring LegallyBearded: In the above message, LegallyBearded
> > successfully granted emself 52 welcome packages.
> >
> > -Aris
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 08:56:49 -0600
> From: nix <ag...@nullarch.com>
> To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering
> Message-ID: <c90f0056-1abc-4dff-9785-537b23548...@nullarch.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 3/4/24 22:32, Rowan Evans via agora-business wrote:
> > I grant myself 52 welcome packages, each containing 1 stamp.
>
> It's possible this fails on the fact that there's no mechanism to grant
> yourself X welcome packages. You can only do one at a time, so the more
> proper language would be "52 times, I grant myself a welcome package."
> Tho we might determine that it's semantically equivalent here.
>
> --
> nix
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 08:57:37 -0600
> From: nix <ag...@nullarch.com>
> To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: gift to my friend murphy
> Message-ID: <41dc97a2-ca54-4271-8f68-3e938f184...@nullarch.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 3/5/24 01:56, Rowan Evans via agora-business wrote:
> > Conditional on my silly scam receiving a favourable CFJ, I grant Murphy
> 2.4
> > welcome packages.
>
> This fails for two reasons. First, you cannot use conditionals that rely
> on future information for actions. Secondly, there's no way to do a
> fractional part of an action.
>
> --
> nix
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 09:06:28 -0600
> From: nix <ag...@nullarch.com>
> To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering
> Message-ID: <c732d7c9-a850-425b-bc3e-86a3a6f09...@nullarch.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 3/4/24 22:32, Rowan Evans via agora-business wrote:
> > By rule 2577: Granting an asset causes it to be "created in that entity's
> > possession". I take this to be meaningfully different from "receiving" an
> > asset, because granting is distinguished from the "transfer" of an asset
> in
> > this same rule.
>
> I'm not going to give an opinion on this point directly because I told
> LegallyBearded I wouldn't interfere. However, here's some definitions
> (selecting only the most relevant-seeming from the source):
>
> >From Wiktionary:
>
> 1. To take, as something that is offered, given, committed, sent, paid,
> etc.; to accept; to be given something.
>
> >From Merriam-Webster:
>
> 1. to come into possession of : acquire
>
> >From dictionary.com:
>
> 1. to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to
> receive many gifts.
>
> 2. to have (something) bestowed, conferred, etc.: to receive an honorary
> degree.
>
> --
> nix
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:45:59 +0000
> From: Gaelan Steele <g...@canishe.com>
> To: "Agora Nomic discussions (DF)" <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering
> Message-ID: <afe74f9b-90b6-47a8-b359-e6141e752...@canishe.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 2024, at 4:37?AM, Aris via agora-business <
> agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> >
> > Erm... that CFJ doesn't do what you want it to. CFJs are supposed to be
> > statements, not questions, and interpreting something out of context is
> > different from interpreting it in context.
>
> Without commenting on the rest of the situation (I haven?t looked into
> it), we have precedent that CFJs phrased as questions are fair game; see
> CFJ 3505.
>
> Gaelan
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:51:07 +0000
> From: Gaelan Steele <g...@canishe.com>
> To: "Agora Nomic discussions (DF)" <agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>
> Subject: DIS: Re: BUS: ???? ?????? (?????? ??? ???? ??)
> Message-ID: <ad12b49a-b1e9-4b9b-b1df-9d4bb0d9f...@canishe.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
> > On Mar 4, 2024, at 6:55?PM, nix via agora-discussion <
> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/4/24 12:19, Goren Barak via agora-business wrote:
> >> ???? ????,
> >> ? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ? ???? ? ?????
> >> ? ??????, ??? "? ?????? ? ?????? ?? ?????"
> >>
> >> ????? ????
> >
> > A few notes on this, besides the fact it probably doesn't work for
> > effort reasons:
> >
> > I assume you meant to make an intent here, you first need to publish
> > something to the effect of "I intend to declare apathy..." and then do
> > the "I declare apathy" after the intent has been around and un-objected
> > long enough.
> >
> > Even if the intent was written correctly, the second sentence doesn't do
> > anything. You cannot add a non-rule-defined restriction on objections,
> > so objections like Janet's (where e objected without even being sure
> > there's an intent) still work.
> >
> > --
> > nix
> >
>
> Beyond standard by-announcement rules, there?s also the explicit
> requirement
> in 1728/46 that tabling an intent specifies certain information ?without
> obfuscation?; it?s hard to imagine the choice of alphabet here was not done
> with the intention to obfuscate.
>
> Gaelan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2024 15:51:56 +0000
> From: ais523 <callforjudgem...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> Subject: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering
> Message-ID:
> <dc470dee6b3d8f8b54ab2c251a6d838a7f0c9b23.ca...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Tue, 2024-03-05 at 15:45 +0000, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion
> wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 2024, at 4:37?AM, Aris via agora-business
> > <agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Erm... that CFJ doesn't do what you want it to. CFJs are supposed to be
> > > statements, not questions, and interpreting something out of context is
> > > different from interpreting it in context.
> >
> > Without commenting on the rest of the situation (I haven?t looked into
> > it), we have precedent that CFJs phrased as questions are fair game; see
> > CFJ 3505.
>
> Well, the precedent of CFJ 3505 also states that CFJ 3505 was never
> validly judged, although the CFJ record seems to ignore that. (FWIW, I
> disagree and think that that part of the judgement was given validly,
> but is wrong.)
>
> --
> ais523
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> agora-discussion mailing list
> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agora-discussion
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of agora-discussion Digest, Vol 124, Issue 4
> ************************************************
>
