I guess I should add that I think strong AI may start out with simple 'principles/ or methods but it might start out with very complicated principles and methods as well. I do not think an attitude that animal physiology -must- be simple is very realistic. However, I do not see any good evidence to assume that simple methods cannot suffice as a starting point for stronger AI. On the other hand, I think there is lots of evidence that complicatedness is a major problem for stronger AI. So when I argue that the study of natural language processing is a major move toward strong AI I am talking about AI that can adapt to special languages that are used frequently amongst a group, just as we have our own language to talk about what we are talking about. The average person would have no idea what I am talking about, but most of you can make some sense out of what I am saying (whether you agree with it or not.) If a natural language processing programming can adapt to novel usages of terms and sentences, then it can learn, and I would say that it would also need to have overcome the present day hurdles of complicatedness in some way. I think there are undiscovered mathematical methods that will one day take a giant step over the present-day hurdle of complicatedness. Jim Bromer
On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 10:01 AM Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: > This argument from Robert Levy is not quite right, in my opinion. While > most animals do not have a sophisticated language, it can be seen that > animals are capable of learning about routine events and attach meaning to > linguistic cues (or other kinds of sensory events like bells) to those > routine generalizations. That would constitute a language, and it > exemplifies the contention that to collect insight about (the > generalizations of a kind) of event constitutes a symbolization of a > precursor of the event. The knowledge that a precursor might represent an > event thereby demonstrates that the animal has a basic 'linguistic' > ability. And the idea that an animal can associate a learned signal with a > possible event (like dinner) shows that the animal has the power of a > 'linguistic' imagination. > Could designing a robot that has to learn to walk be the breakthrough in > strong AI according to Robert's thesis? Because there are some animals that > can learn to walk within a few hours of being born. A foal is an example. > Foals have spindly legs that splay a little with the first steps but they > are not mechanically designed for stability like a stationary landing pod > on a spacecraft. The idea that designing an artificial process that is > simple for some animals might represent a breakthrough in AI does not make > sense for one reason. It does not take complexity into account. (I am > speaking of complicatedness of course.) It is very easy to design AI > programs that can operate within extremely simple domain data-spaces. The > problem is dealing with extremely complicated domain environments where > complexity is a major hurdle. > It is a mistake to think that language research in AI is not a pathway > towards AGI. However it is a mistake to think that linguistic abilities are > themselves strong AI just as it is a mistake to think that designing a > robot that can learn to walk is strong AI. Both of these challenges can be > met by simplifying the environmental domain sufficiently. The challenge is > finding a way that true learning can take place when confronted with > thousands of complications. > Jim Bromer > > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 7:24 PM Robert Levy <[email protected]> wrote: > >> It's very easy to show that "AGI should not be designed for NL". Just >> ask yourself the following questions: >> >> 1. How many species demonstrate impressive leverage of intentional >> behaviors? (My answer would be: all of them, though some more than others) >> 2. How many species have language (My answer: only one) >> 3. How biologically different do you think humans are from apes? (My >> answer: not much different, the whole human niche is probably a consequence >> one adaptive difference: cooperative communication by scaffolding of joint >> attention) >> >> I'm with Rodney Brooks on this, the hard part of AGI has nothing to do >> with language, it has to do with agents being highly optimized to control >> an environment in terms of ecological information supporting >> perception/action. Just as uplifting apes will likely require only minor >> changes, uplifting animaloid AGI will likely require only minor changes. >> Even then we still haven't explicitly cared about language, we've cared >> about cooperation by means of joint attention, which can be made use of >> culturally develop language. >> >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 12:05 PM Boris Kazachenko <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I would be more than happy to pay: >>> https://github.com/boris-kz/CogAlg/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md , but I >>> don't think you are working on AGI. >>> No one here does, this is a NLP chatbot crowd. Anyone who thinks that >>> AGI should be designed for NL data as a primary input is profoundly >>> confused. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 7:04 AM Stefan Reich via AGI < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Not from you guys necessarily... :o) But I thought I'd let you know. >>>> >>>> Pitch: >>>> https://www.meetup.com/Artificial-Intelligence-Meetup/messages/boards/thread/52050719 >>>> >>>> Let's see if it can be done... funny how some hurdles always seem to >>>> appear when you're about to finish something good. Something about the >>>> duality of the universe I guess. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Stefan Reich >>>> BotCompany.de // Java-based operating systems >>>> >>> *Artificial General Intelligence List <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* >> / AGI / see discussions <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + >> participants <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery >> options <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink >> <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T191003acdcbf5ef8-Ma8c45167d4fb07a3df8d0c2f> >> ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T191003acdcbf5ef8-Mec0c783215cf7b46823bd1fd Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
