Interesting thread. My opinion is the best course of action is to pick a
scheme you favor and damn the torpedos! Get to work and plan on a lot of
failures. Maybe some success. God, I hope so.

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019, Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> wrote:

> It is easy to come up with ideas and to say what approaches to AGI
> should be obvious. It is much harder to test them, and when we do we
> are sometimes surprised that our ideas don't work. Linas's
> dissertation length paper on the equivalence of symbolic and neural
> language systems would be a good review of dozens of different
> approaches if there were an experimental results section that told us
> which ones were worth pursuing. The idea goes back to Rumelhart and
> McClelland in the 1980's who proposed neural language models with
> neurons representing letters or phonemes, words, and parts of speech.
> It makes sense. But we just lacked the computing power to implement
> it.
>
> Rule based grammars seem to make sense because it works on artificial
> languages using very little computing power. You parse the sentence
> and analyze the tree for semantics. You can cover about half of all
> English sentences with a few dozen rules. But English doesn't work
> that way. Nobody knows how many rules you need to parse the other
> half. Why do we prefer "salt and pepper" over "pepper and salt"?
> Furthermore, you have to understand sentences before you can parse
> them. Consider:
>
> I ate pizza with a fork.
> I ate pizza with pepperoni.
> I ate pizza with Bob.
>
> The standard measure of language model performance is word perplexity,
> or equivalently, text prediction or compression. It is equivalent to a
> quantitative version of the Turing test because successful prediction
> of a dialog is equivalent to predicting how a human would answer the
> same questions. In http://mattmahoney.net/dc/text.html I evaluated
> over 1000 versions of 200 language models over the last 12 years,
> measuring text prediction accuracy of each one to 9 significant
> digits. So I can tell you what really works.
>
> The top 3 programs and 13 of the top 14 use a context mixing
> algorithm, which uses neural networks to combine the predictions of
> hundreds or thousands of context models. (Practical compressors may
> use 4 to 8 models). The input text is preprocessed, replacing capital
> letters with lower case plus a special symbol and merging white space.
> Words are replaced with tokens from a dictionary that groups related
> words like "monday" and 'tuesday" or "mother" and "father". There are
> automated methods of building the dictionary, omitting and spelling
> rare words and grouping words by proximity for semantics and
> clustering in context space for syntactic role. Next the tokenized
> stream is fed to hundreds of context models which predict one bit at a
> time. The predictions are combined by a hierarchy of neural networks.
> A network takes a bit probability P in (0,1) as input, stretches it: X
> = ln(P)/ln(1-P), computes a weighted sum X = SUM WiXi, and squashes
> the output P = 1/(1+e^-X)). The weights are then updated by the
> prediction error,  W += L(Y-P) depending on the predicted bit Y, where
> L ~ .001 is the learning rate. This is single layer gradient descent
> in coding cost space, which is simpler than descending in RMSE using W
> += L(P)(1-P)(Y-P) as in back propagation. The final prediction of Y is
> arithmetic or ABS coded in -log2 P(Y) bits.
>
> There are hundreds of models because there are many ways to predict
> bits from a context. The simplest is to look up the last N bits
> (usually starting at a byte or word boundary) or its hash in a table
> that outputs P, then adjust P up or down depending on Y. A more common
> method is an indirect context model, where the context hash indexes a
> state representing a bit history like 0000000001. Rather than assume a
> stationary model and output P = 0.1 or a rapidly changing model and
> guess P = 0.5 or 0.9, we look up the state in a second table, output
> P, then adjust P depending on Y. Other context models might look for
> long matches and guess whatever bit followed the last match. A model
> might be a mix of other models where the weight table W is selected by
> a small context. A context can skip letters or words, or it can drop
> bits from a token to group related words into the same context. A
> model can be tuned by feeding P and a context into an interpolated
> table that outputs a new P trained on Y.
>
> Developing a compressor takes several years of work, testing thousands
> of variations, observing tiny variations in compression ratio, like
> 0.001%, and deciding which changes are worth keeping because each
> model uses time and space. The programs are complex with tens of
> thousands of lines of code, in keeping with Legg's theorem that
> powerful predictors are necessarily complex and simple universal
> predictors do not exist. Some of the top programs use 32 GB or memory
> and take a week to compress 1 GB of text, in keeping with my own
> observation that prediction accuracy increases logarithmically with
> computing power. This is still 1000 times faster than the human brain
> processes text. The best compressor achieves 0.93665 bits per
> character on this particular benchmark, which is in the range 0.6 to
> 1.3 bpc estimated by Shannon in 1950 and below Cover and King's 1978
> estimate of 1.3 to 1.7 bpc on different texts. I don't claim any of
> these programs could pass the Turing test or achieve human level
> prediction on this particular benchmark because that remains to be
> evaluated.
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 2:08 AM Nanograte Knowledge Technologies
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Fair enough question. I'm involved directly in designing pseudo code
> (systems models, policies, and logic in a computational format). Second, I
> was a 4GL developer and worked directly as a professional in systems dev
> and systems engineering for 22 years (my own R&D excluded). I currently
> employ a small development team to set up the dev environment for my
> practical case. I'm more hands-on than my time permits, but that means I'm
> learning a lot about google and specialized plugins and how all works
> together.  As such, I've identified the need to develop a custom-encryption
> system to protect the data with. This is possible via a semantic
> application of my NLU.  In this sense, semantic means something else.
> >
> > The next step would be to start coding the actual NLU - already being
> deployed for many years - as well as other, mature frameworks, which would
> form the layered, reasoning/unreasoning backbone of the eventual system.
> All these frameworks are expressed as systems models in the NLU format.
> First level = collecting, translating, and normalization to
> knowledge-maturity level 5 (my own hierarchies). Second level has
> application for evolutionary systems.
> >
> > In the 1st and 2nd level events, I would employ the best I (and
> hopefully my co-funders) would be able to afford to start implementing the
> series of designs and algorithms, which already exist in design format. I
> might even team up with a university and their postgrad programs. Except
> for not yet having been able to resolve IP issues, this has been explored
> over a number of years and it seems highly feasible.
> >
> > Robert Benjamin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stefan Reich via AGI <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, 04 February 2019 6:48 PM
> > To: AGI
> > Subject: Re: [agi] The future of AGI
> >
> > Thanks for your input, it's interesting. Are you involved in any code
> production? (Sorry if I should know already...)
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> > Am Mo., 4. Feb. 2019 16:58 hat Nanograte Knowledge Technologies <
> [email protected]> geschrieben:
> >
> > Hi Stefan
> >
> > I meant that there seems to be a popular view emerging, which nudges in
> the direction of rethinking the prevailing architectural approach towards
> enabling agi. It further means I'm recognizing how the pattern might be
> shifting, and that I'm in support of such a view. In my opinion - and with
> respect to the incredible effort that has gone into such ventures -
> attempting to duplicate the human brain was never a sound-enough approach.
> Such a fallible organ.
> >
> > Modern-day, real-time language translators offer sufficient advancement
> in NLU, does it not?  I like your suggestion about converging around
> image/audio recognition and learning logic as a single unit of cognition
> (perhaps). The latest AI can accurately read lips at a distance.
> Furthermore, apps now perform facial recognition from among crowds and
> track those faces. Some AI apps monitor and analyze bio-metric forces
> (electo-magnetic forces) around the body and other visible human
> characteristics as tell-tale indicators of inner intent and emotional
> states. It helps to identify potential criminals and deceivers. In
> addition, many computer games have shown a reactive-learning capability
> based on cause-effect scenarios. And then you go and casually plonk in the
> mother lode - evolutionary algorithms.
> >
> > This is the exact point at which I restate the likely need of a radical
> new approach. If we cannot express computational evolution in terms of
> recombination and diversification, we may have not yet managed to cross our
> own, intellectual Abyss.
> >
> > As some suggested here (in my own words); we are inherently restricted
> by our own human-reasoning universe. Is constructive reasoning about an
> unreasoning universe the required level of super-positional madness
> designers should attain, or should we rather entice the machine to indulge
> itself accordingly? Maybe then, a bit of both.
> >
> > I think, first, we should ourselves evolve via recombination, not
> adaptation. Morphing, not mimicking. If researchers and designers
> voluntarily became agi, perhaps we would understand it a little better.
> Sure, the world would probably reject us and call us nuts (as was done with
> Tesla), but they would still appropriate our output.
> >
> > Such a radical approach. How to do our damndest not to try and make any
> sense of it at all, purely relying on our collective ken and instinct. Some
> say ancient-astronautical mindsets, merely following in the footprints that
> were already laid down for those who would follow after and read the signs.
> >
> > Only time would tell. I'm enjoying the journey. The destination is not
> my concern. There is no more right, or wrong.  Only to be correct in every
> instance of a moment presented to our manifestation (in the sense of a
> physical artifact with identity). In my lifetime I'd love to synergize with
> fellow pilgrims though. I see a think tank of the quality that Alexander
> Graham Bell founded and where scientists and intellectuals and inventors
> and passionate others flocked to. I think, this is how humankind might get
> closer to manifesting agi.
> >
> > Robert Benjamin
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stefan Reich via AGI <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, 04 February 2019 2:01 PM
> > To: AGI
> > Subject: Re: [agi] The future of AGI
> >
> > > Many commentators here agreed (over time) how agi development requires
> a radically-different approach to all other computational endeavors to date.
> >
> > Not sure what that means. A really good NLU will go a very long way, and
> then we'll have to find a new "magic learner" module that replaces neural
> networks, both for image/audio recognition and learning logic. I suggest
> evolutionary algorithms.
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 at 05:45, Nanograte Knowledge Technologies <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps it's because, for its exponential complexity, agi defies
> theoretical science. If no executable, framework of computational
> intelligence exists, what's the use of being able to run at the speed of
> light?
> >
> > Many commentators here agreed (over time) how agi development requires a
> radically-different approach to all other computational endeavors to date.
> As evidenced, developing a feasible approach (in the sense of a platform)
> would require at least 10 years of R&D. In my opinion, that is correct. In
> my case it took more than 22 years - part-time. Towards an agi prototype
> then, with 10-years' concentrated effort, perhaps another additional 5-7
> years?
> >
> > Perhaps we should start pooling our research and resources with those
> who offer the best 10-year result to date? I'm beginning to think this
> would be the best way forward. Imagine a safe, inclusive, collaborative
> environment where R&D parties could post real problems they needed solving
> and tangible credit was given to the authors of such solutions? We're
> talking sharing in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow off course.
> >
> > Except for those sticky-finger, big boys who do not play well with
> others at all. I'm quite certain they monitor this list trying to farm it
> yet never contributing one bit of usefulness to others.  Those we should
> weed out from any "collaborative" setup at every opportunity. They are only
> in it for themselves, not for the industry, or the benefit of the world.
> Yes, you know who you are!
> >
> > This is the extent of my professional opinion.
> >
> > Robert Benjamin
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Linas Vepstas <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, 04 February 2019 6:16 AM
> > To: AGI
> > Subject: Re: [agi] The future of AGI
> >
> > I have no clue what Peter is actually thinking because he's coy and
> secretive. But I'm not pessimistic. I'm just perplexed why no one ever
> seems to try the obvious things. Or why I can never seem to explain obvious
> things  to anyone and have them understand it.  I am quite certain that one
> can do better than neural nets and more easily,  too, an have explained
> exactly how more times than I can count, but my words are not connecting
> with anyone who understands them. So, whatever. Day at a time.
> >
> > --linas
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:28 PM <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I’m not that pessimistic at all.
> >
> >
> >
> > Our own AGI project has made steady progress over the past 17 years in
> spite of only spending about $10 million – about 150 man-years of focused
> effort.  We’ve managed to successfully commercialize an early version of
> our proto-AGI engine in a company that now employs about 100 people
> www.smartaction.com . For the last 5 years my full-time team of about 10
> people has been working on the next generation engine
> www.AGIinnovations.com /  www.Aigo.ai . We are now ready to commercialize
> this more advanced platform.
> >
> >
> >
> > Our focus has been limited to natural language comprehension/ learning,
> question answering/ inference, and conversation management.
> >
> > I think that $100 million could go a long way towards functional,
> demonstrable proto AGI.  It seems to me that DeepMind hasn’t made good use
> of the $200 or $300million spend so far – they lack a proper theory of
> intelligence.  I don’t know why Vicarious, the other well-funded AGI
> company, hasn’t made better progress in perception/ action – my guess, for
> the same reason….
> >
> > I think all of the theoretical calculations of processing power are
> widely off the mark – we’re not trying to reverse-engineer a bird – just
> need to build a flying machine.
> >
> >
> >
> > My articles are here: https://medium.com/@petervoss/
> my-ai-articles-f154c5adfd37
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Voss
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Linas Vepstas <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 10:26 PM
> > To: AGI <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: [agi] The future of AGI
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Matt, very nice post! We're on the same wavelength, it seems. --
> Linas
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 3:17 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > When I asked Linas Vepstas, one of the original developers of OpenCog
> > led by Ben Goertzel, about its future, he responded with a blog post.
> > He compared research in AGI to astronomy. Anyone can do amateur
> > astronomy with a pair of binoculars. But to make important
> > discoveries, you need expensive equipment like the Hubble telescope.
> > https://blog.opencog.org/2019/01/27/the-status-of-agi-and-opencog/
> >
> > Opencog began 10 years ago in 2009 with high hopes of solving AGI,
> > building on the lessons learned from the prior 12 years of experience
> > with WebMind and Novamente. At the time, its major components were
> > DeStin, a neural vision system that could recognize handwritten
> > digits, MOSES, an evolutionary learner that output simple programs to
> > fit its training data, RelEx, a rule based language model, and
> > AtomSpace, a hypergraph based knowledge representation for both
> > structured knowledge and neural networks, intended to tie together the
> > other components. Initial progress was rapid. There were chatbots,
> > virtual environments for training AI agents, and dabbling in robotics.
> > The timeline in 2011 had OpenCog progressing through a series of
> > developmental stages leading up to "full-on human level AGI" in
> > 2019-2021, and consulting with the Singularity Institute for AI (now
> > MIRI) on the safety and ethics of recursive self improvement.
> >
> > Of course this did not happen. DeStin and MOSES never ran on hardware
> > powerful enough to solve anything beyond toy problems. ReLex had all
> > the usual problems of rule based systems like brittleness, parse
> > ambiguity, and the lack of an effective learning mechanism from
> > unstructured text. AtomSpace scaled poorly across distributed systems
> > and was never integrated. There is no knowledge base. Investors and
> > developers lost interest….
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > cassette tapes - analog TV - film cameras - you
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Stefan Reich
> > BotCompany.de // Java-based operating systems
> >
> > Artificial General Intelligence List / AGI / see discussions +
> participants + delivery options Permalink
> 
> --
> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected]

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