Yep, that's what I mean. If I need a certified welder, until a given person is a certified welder that person does me exactly zero good as far as my need for a certified welder. Which means that the value to me of that person as a certified welder is zero.
They may be worth $15/hr as a janitor or $100/hr as a senior systems designer/engineer, assuming I need that skillset and that's what they're qualified for. But zero as a certified welder. Going to a potential employer and saying "I'm not a certified welder but I see you will train me to be one, but you'll have to pay me the market rate for a certified welder from day one" shouldn't seem reasonable to anyone. Until the certificate is achieved the value to the employer is zero. If a person wants a job that they aren't currently qualified for, the traditional method was to go to school and spend their own money and learn a trade. The offer Chuck and I make is that if you're completely unqualified come work for a lower wage until I can get you up to speed. In my case the starting wage would be higher than $15 right now, but that's because I tend to set it at whatever it seems the "entry level McDonald's" wage is. On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 1:32 PM <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: > I interpreted it in a more hyperbolic way. I.E. The value of an unskilled > person is zero to Forrest because Forrest requires skilled labor. I don’t > imagine that Forrest truly believes any person (skilled or otherwise) has > zero value. > > > > The point about deferring income is well taken. People could have child > support payments, debts, etc which limit their options in life. Hopefully > not too many 18 yr old graduates have those issues, but I’m sure some do. > > > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *fiber...@mail.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2023 3:20 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > The counterexamples were in response to the absolutist statement > regardling the lack of value of labor. They were not directly related to > market of welders. > > > > Indirectly, however, they relate via supply and demand. All labor has a > market clearing price. If the market price of unskilled labor is higher > than the wage of a welding trainee, it will reduce the available labor pool > for welding trainees. > > > > Welding might very well be a better career move, but not all employees are > in a position to defer income. Thus by surpressing the welding trainee pay, > the employer is limiting the pool of applicants to those who can afford to > take the job, rather than to all those who may have a disposition for the > job. > > > > > > - Jared > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2023 > *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com > *To:* "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" <af@af.afmug.com> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > “This is provably incorrect. Counterexample: slavery and forced labor.” > > > > I’m not sure what the relevance is of forced labor in this discussion. Do > you mean because a $0 “employee” drives down the market price? > > Where are the slave welders that would alter Chuck’s pay scale? I’m open > to further discussion on this point, but at the moment I don’t see how it’s > relevant. > > > > “$15/h may be an awesome deal or it may not, if working at McDonald's pays > $18/h.” > > > > If McDonald’s pays $18/hr and a welding trainee gets $15/hr, you are *still > better off long term taking the welding position*. If you turn out to be > a terrible welder then quit and go to McDonalds, but if you get good at it > then your potential earnings go way farther up than the fast food > industry. I will take the $15 and figure out how to make it work, and I’ll > say thank you very much for this opportunity, sir. If I took the McDonalds > position my best hope is to be a shift leader or assistant manager and I’d > never make what a welder can make. > > > > “Market wages do not really care about what's "fair" or "reasonable".” > > > > Correct. 100% > > > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *fiber...@mail.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2023 2:29 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > This is provably incorrect. Counterexample: slavery and forced labor. > > > > $15/h may be an awesome deal or it may not, if working at McDonald's pays > $18/h. > > > > Market wages do not really care about what's "fair" or "reasonable". > > > > > > - Jared > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 6:09 PM > *From:* "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com> > *To:* "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > The value of someone with zero skills and experience is zero. > > > > The fact that many employers are willing to hire someone that has zero > skills and experience at $15/hr and train them at zero cost to the employee > is an awesome deal for a person who wants an opportunity. > > > > Unfortunately it seems that a lot of people with zero skills and zero > experience think they should get paid at the same rate as someone who has > gone to school on their own dime and learned a trade. Or the same as > someone who has 20 years experience. > > > > Apparently the electrical field has the same problems. Employers willing > to take the risk on someone and pay not only to train the people but also > to pay a survival wage during training are often rewarded by applicants > that demand the same wages as fully licensed electricians. > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 8:08 AM <fiber...@mail.com> wrote: > > I don't quite get the logic of this. > > > > Why would you work for less than market wages? > > > > How is working for less than market wages an investment in yourself? > > > > - Jared > > > > > > On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 Chuck Macenski wrote: > > One way to say it: "The youth of today cannot live on $15 an hour so a lot > of candidates will not even walk through the door because other places even > in the field of welding pay higher to start." > > > > Another way to say it: "The youth of today will not invest in themselves." > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 9:48 PM Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > A lot of what is happening now can be attributed to housing imho. > > > > A house is your domain. The place you get things done. Your mind expands, > you have more space to enjoy hobbies or learn something new. Personally, I > don’t get that from an apartment when I have to worry about my neighbours > and volume levels and having no space to do anything. > > > > I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with making your own sandwich, or > living at your appropriate means, but I don’t consider living with > roommates living. It’s a stepping stone to the American dream (owning a > house). > > > > My parents have told me about their times growing up, living in the single > wide. The pipes would freeze every winter and my dad would be down there > with the hair dryer in the 70’s to unthaw. That’s all fine and dandy. When > they had me in 88, they bought a house, probably 1700sqft, it was nice. I > wouldn’t have had the childhood I had by being in a trailer. > > > > I don’t really believe in religion of any kind, they all have valuable > teachings (and not so valuable) but I think it’s just how you think about > the world at large. Things are always changing, and I don’t think it’s a > bad mantra to think that the new generation should have it better than > generations past. Doesn’t mean you have to stop learning, or applying > yourself. In Canada specifically our housing is so out of control that even > a new family with one kid still has to rent and/or be in a small apartment > unless they wait until they’re 40 and have had decent paying jobs (70k) a > year for a while. > > > > Or live in the boonies and kill your own food, gather your own wood, and > there’s nothing wrong with that either. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 5:25 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote: > > Exactly what problems are young people facing? Almost every single one > that wants to can enlist in the military. That will feed them and teach > them a skill (and some manners, and how to work) and they will come out > with the VA and GI Bill. Pell grants, student loans. > > > > If someone wants to better themselves, they can. Kids today have it far > easier than ever before. Work from home, online classes that are free, > hell you can learn highly specialized technical stuff on Youtube. > > > > What is wrong with making yourself a sandwich? If you are broke, don’t > f**king spend. You are making my point for me. > > > > Oh, the horrors of having to cook your own food, walking to work and > living in a single wide. Those are human rights abuses man! (said all the > snowflakes and they melted and went down the storm sewer) > > > > Where on the stone tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain does > it say: “Young people should have it easier than you had it”? > > > > You eat what you kill. > > > > > https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/ > > > > > > *From:* Ryan Ray > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 5:55 PM > > *To:* Chuck McCown > > *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > Not defeatist or jealousy or envy. > > I’m 34, I bought a 2500sqft house on a green belt in 2013 (25 Years old). > Sold my company, and I live an extremely comfortable life for someone my > age. No mortgage, a couple nice cars. I worked very hard, lots of long > nights, lots of learning to get to where I’m at, and did it all without > having any generational wealth to start with. To phrase it for you old > folks, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps. > > > However, your attitude is what makes me call you a boomer. You seem to > have no empathy and are not willing to discuss the current problems facing > young people today. You keep referencing back to how you did it, and just a > few bucks in the 80's or the 70's or whatever. I could see it in your post. > Saying things like "Make a sandwich at home, ride the bus, live in a > trailer" > > > > Don't get me wrong Chuck, you're a smart guy. I've learned a lot from you > over the years both in person and through this list. I take that as one of > my core values is to listen to people, even when I think they're stupidly > wrong, and make sure I never close myself off to any viewpoint and that > makes me better in everything I do. > > > I just think you're hand waving away a lot of current economic issues > plaguing the world. Young people should have it easier than you had it, > just like you had it easier than someone born in the 20's. Or should we > just keep letting trillion dollar corps run the world and you got yours, so > the young kids can go pound sand because their $18/hr job should suffice. > (BTW my first "real" job back in 2008 was 35k a year) I was 19. No > schooling, and that would be your $18/hr now. > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 3:20 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote: > > Defeatist attitude. > > > > Or just jealous? Envy? > > > > In 1990 I was so broke I was sitting on the side of the highway with my 4 > kids (at the time) selling everything I had to get a bus ticket to get out > of town to get to a job to make a few bucks to move the family. > > > > Fast forward 10 short years and I had enough to retire. > > Just hard work. At 40 no less, not 50. > > > > And now 33 years later my house is 5 X larger than that. > > Hell, my garage is bigger than that. > > And my only roommates have been my kids. > > > > But there was some sleeping in dirt and enjoying it at certain periods. > > Doncha only wish you could be like a boomer... > > > > *From:* Ryan Ray > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 3:48 PM > > *To:* Chuck McCown > > *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > lol. These boomers I swear. Live in your 5 roommate 2000sqft box until 50, > retire at 87. Bcck in my day I slept in a dirt pile and we enjoyed it. > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 2:41 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote: > > Fantasy land > > > > > > *From:* Ryan Ray > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 2:54 PM > > *To:* Chuck McCown > > *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > I think ages make a huge difference in a lot of this. If you're talking > about a 17 year old, you're still living at home, saving all your money, > trying to get out. Sure, $17 an hour would be amazing. > > If you're 22, you should be able to afford a 1br apartment on your own, > you shouldn't need roommates, you should expect that you can save 1k a > month for the future, maybe purchase a home by 28? You're going to need to > make more than $17 an hour. > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:10 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote: > > Not sure I am getting your point. Young people frequently struggle when > starting out. The struggle is valuable. You get ahead by getting > educated, getting trained, learning skills people will pay you for. You do > not deserve anything but free air to breath and perhaps water if you live > in an area where it rains. You eat what you kill. > > > > In your example below you are not taking into account, those with half a > brain will have roomates with which to split all the rent and utilities. > That one move makes it go to having plenty of spending money. > > > > So what is it you want me to learn here? In 1979 milk was $1/gallon. It > is now $4.33. Same price adjusted for inflation ... > > > > I do not buy that the kids now-a-days have it any worse than I did. > > > > Cost of a big mac in 1979 was 95 cents. Today, $4.50, same price adjusted > for inflation... > > > > What do I need to learn here??? > > > > > > *From:* Ryan Ray > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 1:58 PM > > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Cc:* Chuck McCown > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > Chuck, > > I'm going to assume you're not trying to cherry pick statistics and want > to learn and listen. > > Housing is only one part of the equation. Food, services, fuel, goods are > at all time highs. Rental markets are becoming unfeasible unless living > with roommates. I'm not sure where or how this mobile home fits in with the > work in your area. Is there work in the area for your daughter to earn $18 > an hour? > > Talent.com says that at $18 an hour, working for 40 hours a week, gets you > $2500 monthly net. > Going off these assumptions Cost of Living in Utah (2023) | SoFi > <https://www.sofi.com/cost-living-utah/> > > Rent: $1100 > Food (No Restaurants): $253 > > Utilities: $300 > > Gas?: $400 > > I think you yanks have things like health insurance. $100/mo? > > > > I haven't thought of everything, but you're already up to $2200/mo. You > don't get ahead because you're behind before you even start. > > Now take into account that the average home price in Utah is $500k and you > cherry picked some bottom of the barrel trailer. I can't tell if you're > being serious or not. > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 11:55 AM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> > wrote: > > One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to adult, lives > with her brother and his wife told me that I just don’t understand how hard > it is today compared to when I was younger. So I did a little comparison > for her: > > > > > > My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour. That would be about $10.70/hour > today. > > > > (I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave labor on the > farm from 1960 until I escaped). > > > > My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional, utility lineman job > in 1979 paid $4.50/hour. > > That would be about $18 today. > > > > My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000 in 1982. Or > about $36K today. > > > https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/744-S-1750-W-Vernal-UT-84078/2070550612_zpid/ > > > > So how is it people have it so much worse today? > > > > > > > > *From:* Jeff Broadwick - Lists > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM > > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not actually > parent. Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting, you’ll likely > have the opportunity out to become friends with your kids after they move > out. > > > Jeff Broadwick > > CTIconnect > > 312-205-2519 Office > > 574-220-7826 Cell > > jbroadw...@cticonnect.com > > > > On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.com> > wrote: > > > > > Yeah, that’s a problem for sure. > > > > All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity and wealth and > entitlement. > > > > Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their minds. To use > a phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it. > > > > I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a month and eating > the same PB&J and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no monthly spend. > > I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as furniture. My > monthly output was focused on paying rent and a bit for food and my car. > > > > I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what I could find > and working my way up. > > > > And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is shit, I am > entitled to more because I exist.” Lol > > > > My grown kids ask for very little and even then get told no all the time, > or have conditions. > > I worry about my younger kids that have spent a lot more time online. They > still know they get nothing as a default, but they are more entitled in > language and practice than my older kids. > > Society online in general isn’t doing anyone any favors. > > > > I mean some of the youtube crap they watch is just inane, and some of > these people just throw around money like it magically appeared to them out > of thin air without a care. > > There is no accountability or explanation. > > > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 10:37 AM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Cc:* Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> > *Subject:* [AFMUG] FB Exchange > > > > I advertised for hiring yesterday, a no experience necessary, get paid to > learn MIG mild steel welding. PT/FT flexible hours. We hire 17 year > olds. I immediately got crap from this guy saying that the “young people > of today” cannot exist on less than $18/hour which is what he gets and he > works from home. > > > > Lots of people defended my $15/entry level, get paid to learn welding > position. > > He deleted his post then sent me this: > > > > Hello there, > > > > Our of respect for you because it wasn't my intent to cause tension, I've > deleted my comment on your posting. My only point was to emphasize that the > going rate for a lot of entry level jobs is much higher than $15 an hour. > Welding is a great skill and can open up great avenues in the future. > > > > However, The youth of today cannot live on $15 an hour so a lot of > candidates will not even walk through the door because other places even in > the field of welding pay higher to start. > > > > What I emphasized at my company starting at $18 is just one example. We > have people here that make well over $50 an hour because we operate on a > commission structure. But that $18 base is livable when a one bedroom is > $1000+ in tooele a month and depending on where you live it's as low as > $1600+ > > > > Again, never meant to offend so I am sorry for causing you any trouble. > > > > I replied: > > So you expect someone to walk from High School directly into a job where > they can have a nice home, car and things? Wow, without learning a trade, > profession or other skill? Our $15/hour people take home $2000/month. > Pretty sure someone can exist on that and the smart ones will have > roommates or live with their parents. And the smarter ones will quickly be > making more than $18/hour. We have exactly zero problems finding as many > workers as we need. So your opinion that "youth of today" cannot exist on > $15/hour is just that, unfounded opinion. I guess your definition of > "exist" is different than mine. You can exist by walking, riding a bicycle > or taking a bus to work. You can exist by eating home cooked meals and > making a home made sandwich for your lunch. You can exist by wearing > clothes from a thrift store. You don't need the latest iPhone and Netflix > to exist. Read a book. The struggle IS the journey and is what creates > grit and strong character. > > > > He replied and blocked me: > > Yeah Okay Boomer. I was reaching out to be nice but you clearly have no > idea what life is like for us today. I just bought my first house at 31 > because of how shit things are right now compared to when you were younger. > But thanks for proving my point by being an asshole about "my definition of > exist" > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > ------------------------------ > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
