I laugh at the whole "get vaccinated so you dont give it to your neighbor" coming from the vaccinated who are spreading it to their neighbors.
Good lulz. Anybody wanna charter a flight from texas to dc? On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 8:01 PM Chuck McCown via AF <[email protected]> wrote: > Run Forrest > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Jay Weekley <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Yay Alabama. > > > > Jaime Solorza wrote: > >> Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and > other ones.. > >> I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. > >> Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit > what you believe... > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >> I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up > >> further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... > >> > >> One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places > >> where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. > >> > >> Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from > >> infection is if other people behaved like they might be a > >> carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away from other > >> people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene. Some > >> people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be > >> infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both > >> sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not > >> to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right > >> of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up > >> infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and > >> make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and > >> because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the > >> rights of people not to be infected. > >> > >> Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to > >> protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having > >> long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if > >> not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a shot can get > >> one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a mask or > >> gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should > >> reflect that, which most of them do at this point. > >> > >> There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're > >> going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the > >> unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital > >> ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask mandates and > >> similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick > >> unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and let them > >> die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path > >> that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take > >> the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you > >> need it. > >> > >> There is also the concern about variants being generated by the > >> virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. > I'm going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy > >> as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what > >> the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a > >> population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask > >> wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence, > >> either way, to make a decision here. > >> > >> The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need > >> people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on > >> actual facts. Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories > >> from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't magnetic. The > >> vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have > >> a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself. No, > >> the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective. > No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you survive > >> COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having > >> long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the > >> vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on. > >> > >> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around > >> the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally > >> respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get > >> the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look at the > >> facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the > >> real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine. But the > >> whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to > >> people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed > >> to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions > >> based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that > >> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation > >> where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors > >> and suppositions. > >> > >> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive > >> lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that > >> the left has their fair share as well. Which side has made up > >> more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues > >> largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue > >> appear larger than it is. > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron > >> <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical > >> reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an > >> individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with > >> their doctor and their family and then make their own > >> decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a > >> medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their > >> perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting > >> sick is not the same for every instance. Most people are > >> pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of > >> their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can > >> no longer make this determination? That people are not smart > >> enough to make the decision in their best interest? That > >> someone on an email list knows better than each individual > >> whether or not that individual should be taking any medical > >> treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are not moving > >> into an era in the country where people decide for others > >> whether or not they should take any medical treatment, > >> especially when we are talking about an experimental > >> vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can now make > >> decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty > >> slippery slope. I believe in the good of people and their > >> ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts. > I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough > >> data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. > >> > >> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated > >> and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned > >> that others are not vaccinated. The only people at risk are > >> those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have > >> accepted that risk. > >> > >> *From:* AF <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of * Robert > >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM > >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > >> > >> David, > >> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who > >> "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I > >> don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population > >> the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. I > >> would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number > >> not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity. > >> > >> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution > >> for. > >> > >> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: > >> > >> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with > >> AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids > >> by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting > >> others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the > >> vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come > >> within 100’ of another person. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron > >> <[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this > >> vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a > >> myriad of other medications. Each decision should be > >> based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical > >> condition being treated. To think that you know > >> everyone’s medical situation better than they do > >> doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. > To call them selfish for making a decision they > >> believe is in their best medical interest seems overly > >> judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to > >> take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be > >> forced to take a medical treatment against their > >> will. You may feel that we should force them to take > >> the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would > >> feel the same about mandatory castration of young men > >> to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there > >> is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the > >> greater good. I am not attempting to determine where > >> that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid > >> medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine > >> and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that > >> decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am > >> learning I see things differently than some other > >> folks. So be it. > >> > >> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, > >> but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work > >> in order to save the human race. Seems like a > >> disconnect there. > >> > >> If we were really so worried about infecting others or > >> causing harm to others, we would avoid all other > >> activities that create risk for others. We’d never > >> drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. > I doubt that very many of us on this list can say > >> that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. > We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass > >> within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is > >> risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being > >> alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all > >> much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke > >> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. > Those are just the facts. Many folks make small > >> adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes > >> of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to > >> make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those > >> causes of death. > >> > >> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear > >> of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I > >> respect the right of folks to make the best choice for > >> their situation. I also respect the right of someone > >> who is not in the best physical condition to eat a > >> steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me > >> some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go > >> to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are > >> responsible enough not to drink and drive when they > >> have had too much. > >> > >> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to > >> our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of > >> it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms > >> are worth the possibility of catching a disease that > >> might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass > >> hypochondria surrounding this situation. > >> > >> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just > >> trying to keep perspective. I just don’t > >> understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they > >> are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe > >> the vaccine will work because if it does, there is > >> nothing to worry about. > >> > >> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like > >> viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will > >> have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll > >> never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t > >> getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate > >> ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. > Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on > >> vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save > >> lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines > >> aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 > >> > >> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a > >> AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people > >> to stop having sex or many of the other high risk > >> things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about > >> AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and > >> people still die from it. No one talks about it any > >> more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That > >> is my bet. > >> > >> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am > >> sure. My only original point was that there are > >> valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We > >> can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should > >> respect their right to chose. > >> > >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Carl > >> Peterson > >> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM > >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > >> <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> > >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > >> > >> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public > >> policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers > >> that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We > >> know that a good percentage of people will follow a > >> mask mandate. Even if most of that group is > >> vaccinated that lever will still do something since no > >> vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that > >> population is walking around as symptom-free carriers > >> at any given time. > >> > >> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way > >> to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to > >> care about their neighbors or their country there > >> isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever > >> isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is > >> about what is best for society vs what an individual > >> thinks is best for themselves. An individual's > >> personal risk of having serious Covid complications is > >> pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to > >> the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. > >> them infecting other people, then it's hard to > >> convince them to get vaccinated. > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess > >> <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >> Why does someone who has made an informed choice > >> not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have > >> not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, > >> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take > >> my chances. > >> > >> *<image001.png>* > >> > >> *Dennis Burgess* > >> > >> * > >> *Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” > >> > >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support > >> Services > >> > >> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: > >> http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/> > >> > >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with > >> www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com> > >> > >> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: > >> https://cloud.linktechs.net > >> > >> *From:* AF <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of > >> *Jan-GAMs > >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM > >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > >> > >> There is no having a sane discussion on this > >> topic. This is more like a whining child having > >> an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed > >> persons are a health hazard and attempting to > >> explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those > >> who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in > >> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick > >> with Covid there is the potential for a new > >> variant even worse than the Delta variant. > >> Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they > >> are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to > >> the public at large. > >> > >> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: > >> > >> I know, we can all make our own decisions. > >> However, I don’t believe I have stated > >> anything that varies from the facts. I can > >> send you the Moderna sheet I received with my > >> vaccine if you want to see that. > >> > >> Your points about FDA approval are probably > >> accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I > >> want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t > >> seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on > >> the plane based on the likelihood that those > >> on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to > >> get on the plane anyway. We still check each > >> and every person to make sure. Just like we > >> do the FDA approval process to make sure. > Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies > >> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we > >> won’t bother putting you through the approval > >> process” We don’t do that for good reason. > >> > >> I agree with you on the memes both ways. > >> Neither approach are helping the situation. > It should be a discussion based upon the > >> scientific merits of the situation. > Unfortunately both side love to poke at the > >> intelligence of those that don’t agree with > >> their decision. > >> > >> There is no way to know this for sure, but I > >> wonder how many folks publicly shaming others > >> for not taking the vaccine know that it is not > >> FDA approved? > >> > >> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, > >> nor am I suggesting it should have. But I > >> don’t think that those of us that decided to > >> go ahead with the vaccination get to make > >> medical decisions for those who aren’t > >> comfortable with an experimental vaccine. > >> > >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> > >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of > >> *Adam Moffett > >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM > >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > >> > >> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't > >> agree with most of your list. > >> > >> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: > >> > >> Here is what I find particularly > >> challenging about suggesting that folks > >> who have chosen not to take the vaccine > >> are not that smart. > >> > >> 1. Folks who do that never talk about > >> that fact that this is not an FDA > >> approved medicine/vaccine. I took > >> the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork > >> clearly stated several facts. Among > >> them are: > >> > >> 1. This is not FDA approved. > >> > >> It has an emergency use authorization. FDA > >> approval takes a long time, but around 90% of > >> the submissions end up approved because they > >> are pretty well tested by the manufacturer > >> before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA > >> approval already has a pretty good idea > >> whether it's going to go through or not. > Presumably people on a no-fly list don't > >> routinely show up at the airport expecting to > >> board a plane. Presumably people don't try to > >> get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug > >> test. Same idea. > >> > >> > >> 1. > >> 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven > >> to prevent the virus. While we > >> likely all agree that there is a > >> very good likelihood that this > >> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it > >> is far from a proven fact. > >> > >> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are > >> un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say > >> maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming > >> infected, but it clearly prevents them from > dying. > >> > >> > >> 1. > >> > >> 1. The argument is, “there should be no > >> reason to think this vaccine isn’t > >> safe since people aren’t dying from > >> taking the vaccine”. > >> > >> I've never heard such an argument. > >> > >> > >> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of > >> medical treatment. Every medicine you > >> take has some level of side effect. > >> The vast majority of medicines have > >> such negligible side effects, that > >> they are considered completely safe. > >> The FDA approval process exists to > >> ensure we understand the potential of > >> serious side effects and drug > >> interaction issues. If you are 30 > >> years old and folks are saying you > >> have to take this experimental drug to > >> prevent this incredibly small chance > >> of you becoming seriously ill or > >> dying, it seems like an intelligent > >> thing to say “I am not sure the risk > >> of getting seriously ill or dying from > >> this disease outweighs the risk of > >> using an experimental drug”. It used > >> to be that people relied upon a > >> conversation with their doctor to > >> determine personal risk of disease and > >> use of a drug. Apparently we no longer > >> do that. We publicly shame people > >> into using experimental drugs. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t > >> have a full understanding of drug > >> interactions with other medicines > >> folks need to take. > >> > >> It isn't some weird new chemical we just > >> invented this year. > >> > >> > >> > >> 1. We likely understand the very common > >> medicines, but, certainly not all. > We have FDA approval processes for > >> good reason. If for example, you > >> were under 40 and were taking seizure > >> control medication, it would be very > >> fair to hold off on an experimental > >> drug until it is fully understood if > >> the vaccine might lessen the > >> effectiveness of the seizure control > >> medication. An incredibly low risk > >> of serious illness or death from the > >> virus could turn into a good chance of > >> serious injury from seizure. As far > >> as I know data like that is certainly > >> not available yet. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need > >> to belittle those that have decided > >> not to get vaccinated by an > >> experimental drug? > >> > >> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not > >> comfortable with that behavior either. It > >> goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out > >> there accusing people of being dumb sheep for > >> taking the vaccine. > >> > >> -- AF mailing list > >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -- AF mailing list > >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> > >> > >> > >> -- AF mailing list > >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> > >> > >> > >> -- - Forrest > >> -- AF mailing list > >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > *Jay Weekley* > > *Cyber Broadband > > * > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > https://www.avg.com > > > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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