Thanks. Due to it being a fairly manual process to enter the commercial weather stations into the map due to ULS complexities, the commercial weather stations are very incomplete. I've only added them as I've needed to.
I'd assume that ULS is correct, but maybe not. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Hohhof" <af...@kwisp.com> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:16:54 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions That’s pretty cool. The links to ULS are nice. I had always wondered whose radar that was by Routes 47 and 64 your map tells me it’s WLS-TV. So if ULS says the frequency is 2900-2950, that means the actual radar beam is in that range? Not in 5 GHz at all? From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:05 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions This is nowhere near complete, but here is a map I've been building of radar sites. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayAnN9KSq09zKS8WCqaQ_QA3JrY&usp=sharing It has TDWR, NOAA, TV stations etc. The private radar stations (mostly TV stations) are the incomplete part of the map because I have to look them up in ULS. It is complete in our area. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Ken Hohhof" < af...@kwisp.com > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:36:28 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions Chicago has 2 TDWRs (for OHare and Midway) and both are in the 5600-5650 MHz band. I think a lot of WISP equipment actually locks out those frequencies, and the only place a WISP would be desperate enough to use that 50 MHz apparently is Puerto Rico, which is apparently the Wild West of spectrum. http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:16 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly. Like 60 rpm. It would be theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is looking your way. You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and figure out when to blank. Their gain is such that you would only have to blank for perhaps 50 mS. If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with the idea. From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the world. That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding themselves. If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not required to have a detection mechanism. Probably a good point that it would be too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to request a channel change. But you really need something like a SAS for this spectrum sharing idea to work. From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only the AP's? On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not xmt. And SM à AP is the direction you may actually need a better signal because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees more interference. It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi antenna at the SM. The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the regulatory EIRP limit. In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits). From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP. On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote: <blockquote> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. It's the up to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for PTMP past a couple miles. The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up. What we need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8. On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just shifted over 5mhz from where you were. And yeah I think the channel needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it. Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are that big of a deal. My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit. False detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event. Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with dishes. I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a sector antenna. The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit. When you're trying to get that 32 SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts. Or when you've already got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them. Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles. Unfortunately I don't have sites like that. -Adam On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote: <blockquote> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false radar detects. Also we are mostly a Cambium shop. So I’m a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers. Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection? On the Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies. But on other gear, I don’t see this. When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random frequency? Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume transmission? Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid? Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP? Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels? We have a competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to 100x100. Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses. And I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide channels other than in DFS bands. We have some PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs. So assuming you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect? Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home? Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum? DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around when you take a DFS hit? -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com </blockquote> -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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